## [Episode 367 – Azure Files vs a Server with an SMB Share](/content/episode367/index.html)

by [Scott](/content/author/scottmsclouditpro/ "Posts by Scott"/index.html) \| Jan 4, 2024 \| [Podcast](/content/category/podcast/index.html)

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\- Welcome to episode 367 of the Microsoft Cloud IT Pro Podcast recorded live on December 29th, 2023. This is a show about Microsoft 365 and dasher from the perspective
of it pros at end users where we discuss a topic or recent news and how it relates to you
to kick off the new year. We start out talking
about some changes coming to the podcast in 2024. After that, we dive into
hosting file shares on Azure and some things to consider. We briefly touch on
comparing this to SharePoint, but then spend the bulk of our
time on a hosted Azure server with an SMB share or using Azure storage in the file share functionality of that service. Oh, we made it Scott, our last recording of 2023, our \- Last recording of 2023. And it's gonna be our first
recording of 2024. Yes. \- Because we are live with those Discord members in 2023
and this will come out. So we didn't talk about this, Scott, and this is a good segue maybe
is this is, I'm assuming, going to come out January, six days from now. Four, five, \- Something like that. \- Thursday,
\- It should be January four, Thursday the fourth. \- Yes. And then you and I, so we do this
every once in a while. We'll go out for breakfast, out for coffee and discuss Podcasty
stuff and what we wanna do and what we're going to do. And we went out for coffee
a week or so ago, right before the Christmas holiday and discussed the podcast in 2024. And as such, are going to make
some changes going into 2024. \- Yeah, real quick, let's,
let's get through this. So, all right, this will be
episode 367 when it comes out. So if you do some quick
back of the napkin math, that's at least one episode a
week for the past seven years. Give, give or take, we're like six and a half pluses coming on seven. Sometimes we've released more episodes. \- Yeah, I think March will be seven. \- Yeah. During conferences
and things like that. But it's been a while. Like
we've been on this kind of continuous march to, to
get this thing out the door. So in 2024 we're going to do that and we're absolutely gonna keep it going, but we are going to
change a few things up. So first is, you and I kind
of both talked about this and we wanna get back into
deeper dives on specific areas either you know, that could
be like a service in Azure, could be a new, you know, component that's released in the Microsoft 365 stack, something like that. But I think we like taking
deeper dives on things and generally that's like
where we'd want to land and we'll still deal the
occasional like broader tech space, random news thing, but that
should be far less frequent. Like we do wanna be a little bit more kind of focused on what
we're putting out there. Second is, like I said,
we've released at least, at least  one episode a weekfor almost seven years straight. Some weeks, especially during conferences, we've cranked out multiple episodes. I remember like Ignite
one year we did like 10 or 13 episodes like that, like something crazy that was nuts. It all takes its toll. Burnout
is definitely a real thing. You and I have talked a bunch about it. We both love putting this podcast together and figuring out the content,
what to chat about each week and to go through that and, and you know, thanks
to everyone who listens and puts up with it, but you know, you and I both need to be
mindful of our mental health, certainly like where we are
in our respective careers. And I think realistic
just about the amount of time we spend on what's
ultimately something that like you and I do for our enjoyment. Yep. We don't do this
for any monetary gain. Like if people think that
oh you've got memberships and you make money off that,
or you've got a YouTube channel and maybe you make money
over there, like we don't, we spend money, we don't make any money. We, we in fact lose a bunch on that. So with that all in mind, we're
just gonna be cutting back to one episode every other week. So the intention here is to
put out more quality content. So we wanna get back
into those deep dives, do more interviews,
ultimately be more intentional and less of what's on
our mind in the moment. So I, I hope that kind of
works out and comes across. And then third is we've
been dual releasing to both the podcast site. So that comes out in
your podcaster of choice. Could be like Apple
Podcasts, could be Spotify, Google Podcasts, YouTube,
any, anything like that. And we've been pushing to
YouTube video at the same time. I think we've been a little
lax on the YouTube side. So for any viewers that
are coming in that way, we're gonna be working
on some new things there. We wanna incorporate more of what we're talking about
directly into the recordings and hopefully bring
everyone all around on kind of all sides, a better
all around experience. So with that out of the way you want to get into today's episode, sure. \- Okay. So no one more thing. And I think with a YouTube thing too, and this was something that
some members brought up in Discord, Scott, was when we're
recording these in the past it's always just been
talking heads, right? It's been yours and i's heads for those people that watch in Discord, they just see us. For those of you that watched
on YouTube, it was just us. Uh, we are going to be
starting to play around with actually doing, showing the
screen when we're doing these. So if you are watching in
Discord, you'll see maybe some of the articles that we're referencing. It's not necessarily
gonna be demoing things, but as we look at different
articles referenced different things, trying to highlight those. And I think this will also
help if you do wanna go watch afterwards on YouTube doing
some YouTube clips again, different things we'll
play with with there. We're going to start trying to
incorporate a little bit more of a visual aspect for those
of you that are interested but still not take away from the audio. Still make sure we're
explaining things in detail, talking through things. For those of you that still
wanna listen to audio. So as we go into 2024,
it might bear with us as we figure out some of that balance to really create this in a
way that it works for both audiences a little bit better. Yeah. \- Yes. See where it all goes. We're open to feedback too. Let us know. \- Yes, absolutely end with that. Let's dive into it now Scott, with our first deep dive ish topic. Deep dive of 2024. And this is one, oh, were
you gonna say something? I was gonna say this is one
that came out of a client discussion that I have had
in the last couple of weeks. It was interesting to talk through this. And this is around a topic that we have talked about on
several occasions in different capacities around where you
put your files in the cloud and the particular client
discussion started with SharePoint and wanting to put all their files in
SharePoint from a file share. And then their plan was just
to map the SharePoint site as a network drive. So they'd still have their
network drive, they'd still do that, but the files would
just be in SharePoint and brought up the fact that web daf, which is the technology
behind it, is now deprecated. Some of that even relies
on Internet Explorer, which is now gone. And that quickly pivoted to, okay, so maybe SharePoint isn't the best place, we should still do a file share. Which resulted in an
interesting conversation of do we do Azure files or do we stand up a 20 22, 20 19 server in Azure and do a typical SMB share
from this Azure server. And so we landed on today,
well let's talk about this around Azure files deployment,
maybe even some comparison between doing Azure
files and an Azure server and what those thoughts are
and maybe some of the pros and cons, some of the parts
of this customer discussion that came up around the
decision that they made, which I can share at some
point in time as well. \- I think it's always an
interesting conversation. So anything that starts outta
my head with Azure files versus, and you mentioned
versus something like just a traditional Windows server
that's maybe out there and it sounded like it could
have been even like an Azure hosted Windows server with just an SMB share presented from it. Like in the back of my head
immediately I hear that, I'm like, why not do both
, you can really have kindof the best of all worlds
here if that's a path that you potentially willing to go down. So like if your requirement is SMB shares Azure files is interesting in that it's a kind of
managed service for you. It's a, it's a managed storage service and you can access those files that are in that managed share in multiple ways. So you can do that by directly mounting and directly attaching to that
file share that's in Azure, like just in a storage account. You know, there's considerations
for networking there. You need line of sight from clients to servers, all those kinds of things. The other interesting thing
that you can potentially do is, and Azure files is
uniquely suited for this, is you confront Azure files with what's called a
Azure file sync server. It's effectively a cash
but it's a near cache and it's a hot cache that can
sit closer to your clients and not just sit closer to your clients but potentially give your clients other functionality as well. So there's things that like the managed service might not be able to do. One of the ones that comes
to mind for me off the top of my head is quick QUIC and being able to do SMB over quick. That's something that's
relatively new-ish in Windows server, but it only
exists in Windows server. It doesn't exist inside of Azure files, the managed service yet. But because Azure files has
this Azure file sync server that can sit in front of it, you can kind of enjoy the benefits of a
managed service, managed storage and kind of that provisioned
unit of storage that sits behind things and all the capabilities that come along with that. Be it redundancy, data
protection, anything like that. And then you can also front it with what's fundamentally just
a traditional SMB server and do everything off of that and get the advantages of
things like SMB over quick for your clients as well. So you don't have to worry
about maybe something like, oh let me stand up a server,
let me provision some disks, let me stripe a bunch of disks together. Maybe I build out a storage pool and then I create an SMB share. I do DFS namespace and present a share out of A DFS namespace back to my clients. Like it's more just, Hey,
I'm gonna stand up a server, I'm gonna put SMB in front of it and rather than presenting
back to local disk, I'm just gonna do a direct
amount of my Azure file share or do Azure file sync into that and then have those components
come back to your clients. It's kind of like the best of
both worlds if you're looking for things like high availability, potentially better disaster
recovery, you're looking for richer data protection
features within your stack. So things like soft delete for accidental data
protection comes to mind for me there you can
turn on soft delete you, you've got managed Azure resources, you do Azure resource locks,
all that kind of stuff. Or managed shares also are
supported with vaulted backup. So you can do backups into
something like Azure backup as well and then just kind of get all that wired up and running. So I don't know, like for me
it's not a if this or that. It's more like hey, which
one of these should you do? And then should you maybe
do both of them together? Because there's, there are some real advantages for you there. \- So I'm curious your thoughts. I have mixed feelings
on doing both of them. I have one client that does both, that sometimes accesses files
from Azure files directly, sometimes accesses them from the server. They have an on-premises server. They have run into some
challenges with that, particularly in the frequency that Azure files sync happens. So I think there's some scenarios to think through there when you're comparing a both or comparing which one is, I would say, where are you accessing these files from and then where's your server sitting? And then I'm also curious on
your thoughts of like benefits of Azure files in the cloud. And I know you mentioned
some things like Azure backup and stuff, but you can also backup a VM and Azure is, is there a real advantage that you see when it comes
to Azure files in the cloud and doing a server with
a file share in the cloud or is this a little bit more of a that stretch type scenario? You have an on-premises
server, you want the speed of the on-premises server
when you're on-premises and you wanna do some of that backup, that redundancy et cetera
up to a file share in Azure. I think some of those are, and not the discussions that
I went to in this client, they were going to go
one way or the other. They weren't necessarily
looking for that environment and they were emphatic that everything was gonna be in Azure. They were getting rid of all
their on-prem servers .And that was a discussion I started having with them was it never even
approached the do we do both at what's always, do we do
one or do we do the other because whatever we do
is gonna sit in Azure. I \- Think it's where you
have to do a little bit of that TCO analysis. So one of the things that
comes to mind immediately for me is if you're talking
about things like it's all in Azure anyway, right? It's, it's a virtual machine. Virtual machines have
disks associated with them so you're gonna need to probably bring in some data discs Yep. To actually host the data and get that in. So data disks are like
a managed disk in Azure. Say you did like a premium V
two disc, like whatever it is, it really doesn't matter
for the most part. Every single one of them is
pay for what you provision, not pay for what you use. So you're gonna go ahead and
maybe bring in say 128 gig disc or 2 56 you're bringing a
terabyte here, a terabyte there, whatever it is, you're
potentially overpaying. So one of the TCO things is with Azure files you can set
up your shares at potentially smaller sizes and just
grow them over time. Like you don't need to stand
up a new disc, you don't need to migrate data between
them, anything like that. Like it's just a share that you attach to and you don't have to
over-provision on day one. So I think that's kind of an
important TCO consideration for you is just what
you're putting together and what you're doing there. The other piece is you know
resiliency on the backend. So if you think about a managed
disc, you can have a disc that you know ultimately the
end of the day like a disc has to live in the same zone as your vm. Like yeah I get their ZRS
discs and things like that but still they really home to like a single data
center within a region. So if you're looking for
additional resiliency redundancy on the storage
plane for those things, that's all just included in Azure files because it's just a
standard storage account. So you can do things like
locally redundant storage, you can do zone redundant storage, you can even do geo replicated stuff. So if you want to do GRS or GZRS, that's all available to you. And then you get kind of multiple flavors of potentially IOPS and and performance with
things like premium versus standard along along the way. I also see a lot of customers like this discussion comes up quite a bit. Like I don't work in with a lot of our files customers directly 'cause I'm more on the object side. But one of the things
that always comes up is how can they use things like
replication technologies like DFSR and stand that up and do they use that in their
on-prem environments today and how does that translate to the cloud? Well the cool thing is
it's just one managed share 'cause all your data
can live in that chair. It has all the data protection
features, redundancy, resiliency, all that good kind of stuff. And then you can just front it with those file syncs wherever you want. So you could front it
with a file sync server that's hosted in Azure in the
case of maybe this customer that you're coming to talking to today or maybe it's a customer who
really does have on-prem needs and cloud needs and you
could have a file sync server that's in Azure and both on premises back closer to those clients. So having that hot cache
component there I think is is important to you. You know I mentioned Azure
backup having like off effectively like offsite backup
for these kinds of things is something that you
would have to wire up and do yourself like sure
it's a virtual machine and maybe you tie that into Azure backup. Is it going to offer you the consistency model that you're looking for? Is it application consistent?
Is it crash consistent? Like what's the consistency model and are you gonna be able to restore it and get it back together versus
just having it in a managed share and then you know, if
the VM goes away, who cares? I just spin up another VM and and my Azure, you know file
share is still sitting there and then you know the last
thing on TCO is it kind of goes back to that costing component and not over provisioning. So you have access to
things like reservations and being able to do
reserve capacity in storage, which depending on the
amount that you're going to, you know potentially provision and leverage within your environment, there could be very real
savings for you there to be in a managed storage
offering over something like just discs which are going to be
expensive for you over time. Either on the management plane to kind of wrangle things together
and get it all wired up and make sure that hey if it does go away, how do we restore it and
what does that look like? Or just the general cost of a disc versus a backend storage
service like Azure files. \- Right. And that's the
way we started going with this client is, you know what, why don't we just do Azure files? You want it all in Azure anyways. Kinda like you mentioned with
Azure files you only pay for what you use instead of paying
for the fully managed disc and the capacity that you're doing. But I think, and here's what I would say about if
you're doing Azure files, if you're accessing it from Azure files and then I want maybe we focus
a little bit more on Azure files is the one client
I had where it stretch and you do talk about the hot cash, this is the biggest issue I
have found with Azure files and then syncing to an
on-prem server on-prem servers have the ability to recognize
when a file is changed or modified and sync it up to Azure files relatively quickly. I mean we're talking a few minutes think OneDrive sync type of functionality. It recognizes it as they're changed and synchronizes them up. Yep. However, what this client
has run into is if they're accessing Azure files and Azure files and then need to access
it from that server, Azure files does not have
that same capability. It doesn't have, and I can't remember
exactly what it's called, it's essentially a trigger to know this file's been modified,
it needs to be synchronized, it relies on a job that
runs every 24 hours to synchronize files down depending on when you hit like
this client was running into issues where I modified this file during the day in Azure files or I modified this file in
the evening from Azure files and went in the next day to the office and the server did not have
the most recent version 'cause that job hadn't run yet. Yep. So what I've found is if you are in that synchronized scenario, you really, I mean I don't wanna say you
only should access 'em from the server, but you kind of need to decide where you're gonna
access these files from. What's that source of truth and stick with only one versus having
some people access it from Azure files and other people
access it from the server. If you find yourself in that
synchronized environment, I haven't found a good solution for it. I've found some people that
like run scripts to try to trigger that
synchronization more often, set it in an Azure runbook, run that runbook every 30 minutes every hour to trigger that job. But it all feels kind
of hack ish to keep those in sync enough where you can access
files from either location and not cause a bunch of conflicts. \- It it is so it, it's rough to do that. I don't know that there's a pit of success that you fall into if you
think about it that way. It's more about recognizing
that change detection does take some time and in large file
shares like large managed shares, it can actually take
longer  than once every24 hours depending on the
size of the namespace. So a a couple of things there. One is you don't want
to be triggering that change detection PowerShell commandlet every 30 minutes like that. Like a, it's more infrastructure you have to stand up even if it is
something like Azure automation B is, it's the, the way that job works is it works by enumerating each and every file that's in your file share. So if you have a large file
share with a large number of objects, you are going
to incur cost to have that happen right there. There's a measure of
time that's associated with enumerating all the files
in there to detect changes. There's also just, hey we're
basically doing a a a read or a get on every single
file that's out there and there's transaction charges associated with that and other things. So you need to recognize
that that limitation exists and if you're in a world where you do something
like dual home to like that dual home isn't a great
idea, you really do want a home to one and pick it as the source of truth probably the file sync server. So even that, in that case
like your Azure hosted clients, you should really be thinking
about like your file server and the sync group for your file servers. 'cause you can have multiple
file sync servers all in the same sync group and tied
back to the same share is, you should think about those
as the kind of management unit for you and and the place where clients are going to access things. So nobody, like once you
go down a file sync path and you're expecting like
immediate sync between them, like don't bother with accessing
the managed share .Like just recognize that that's a thing and it's, it's not worth
you trying to work your way around like wait for
the service to catch up. I think everybody knows
that hey this is a potential limitation and yeah we'd
love to change it over time but there's a whole bunch of
constraints that exist there that make it, you know, maybe
not the most performant thing, like the way it works today
is it's gotta enumerate every file in your file share and
that's a pretty big downer but if you just put another
file sync server up in Azure say in that case, so you end up with managed files share Azure files and then you end up with a
file sync server in Azure that sits in front of that and
then in the same sync group maybe you have like two on-premises places where you're doing business
great those are two more sync servers that then sit down there and those three sync servers
can all sit in a group, they can do what they need to do and everything's kind of hunky hunky dory. But as soon as you start
walking down the path and you start thinking about like, oh this client's gonna go here but this client's gonna access
some other thing in a totally different way like that is not
putting yourself into the pit of success or or a customer into the pit of success at that point. And I kind of wish it was
called out in the documentation better, like it's a
little bit buried in some of the FAQs today and you kind of like don't run
into it until you run into it but it is good to know upfront that that limitation does exist. \- Yeah. In these FAQs they have things like if I create it in one location, how long does it take to sync? It talks through if the file changes on two servers at approximately
the same time what happens? But to your point, the
fact that all of this type of stuff is in FAQs versus like the deployment documentation
when you're setting all of this up, it would be nice
if that was a little bit more \- Clear. I don't know there's a lot
of other stuff in front of you like you have to
figure out, you know, your redundancy needs like even
figuring out do I need like an LRS or a ZRS storage account
can be a heavy enough lift for some customers , you know,how do I view redundancy
in a second region? Like how many nines are
actually important to me? What does that look like? Do I require things like
additional data protection capabilities on there? You know like uh, you know I
mentioned like soft deletes earlier and you know
preventing accident deletes like that's stuff's all great. You also have anti-malware capabilities so you can potentially tie
in defender for storage directly into your file
share and not have to run that on your quote unquote
like on-premises server. Like whether that
actually lived on-premises or it was just an Azure
VM running in the cloud. Like how do you view threat detection? What kind of logging do you need? What's your identity surface? Like how do clients access these things? Oh is it just SMB or is it SMB and NFS? Like maybe you have needs
on that side as well. Like what does monitoring
and operations look for you? Like there's a whole bunch
of other questions to answer before you get to how does
file sync actually work \-  that's a good pointand that's where we ended up with this client was we started
having that conversation and again they were comparing
do we do native Azure file share or do we do a server and
create a file share on there? They're coming from an
on-premises environment and looking to move all
of this into the cloud And that was one of those
conversations we started having was how does authentication
work to Azure file share. Let's say they were like okay
let's put the server aside and let's think through
some of this stuff is things that maybe you run on a server and you mentioned one, what
are we authenticating against? Are we doing Azure ad, are
we doing active directory? How does that authentication
permissioning mapping network drives, look if you're
gonna do Azure files, what is our backup scenario? If we have Azure files and we want to have backups of this data and we need to retain our data
for X number of days, months, years, et cetera, what does that look like if we're
gonna do Azure files, you mentioned antivirus typically
on a file server you may have an antivirus agent running
for how you're monitoring all of your other servers
and your other endpoints and users devices and all of those. What are we doing about antivirus
on all of these servers? And there are a lot of solutions. You mentioned those like the
Microsoft Defender for storage is some of the benefits of that and using that for your malware scanning but then also using it for extra stuff like
sensitive data protection and different levels of protection that you can do in Azure files. But it was interesting because they also found
themselves in that boat of this is all brand new to us. We're not using defender
for cloud for anything. We already have antivirus
that we want to use. We already have a backup solution, we're not using Azure
backup for anything yet. And sitting down and from their perspective
it was a little bit too of what are we familiar with and they did find themselves
in a bit of a time crunch is do we wanna go stand up Azure files but now maybe we have to go
pay for Microsoft defender for storage and now maybe we
have to pay for Azure backup to get our backups and how
does our data retention look, which is a problem we've already
solved in our current SMB share on-prem that we
need to move to the cloud. And really working through
that whole discussion of not just even a feature
for feature comparison between server and Azure files, but what are those other
things that we have as an organization that we use it as the organization
requirements that we have in as an organization that
we need to adhere to and account for where this
file share ends up landing. \- I think it's tough, like
if you're in a time crunch to figure that stuff out, I,
I think I'd be asking a lot of other questions do along
the way like hey you wanna host this in Azure but you're not
familiar with you know maybe Azure terminology and Azure constructs. Like I get that you've got a time crunch but you're gonna have a lot of the same questions on the other side. Like so you mentioned, hey we
already have backup in place. Well if you're running
that on an Azure vm, is it supported, is it licensed? Are you able to run that
backup software in Azure? Same thing for like malware,
like a lot of antivirus and anti-malware, things that run on-prem, they don't work the same way
when they're running on a hypervisor especially uh, bespoke version that's sitting in Azure. Uh, same thing happens in AWS, right? Like the hypervisors
behave in certain ways. They expect clients to
behave in certain ways. Like you know, you don't wanna
put some errant process out there that's gonna start
spiking CPU all of a sudden and get you evicted for
some weird reason right that you just weren't ready for or or anything like that along the way. So at some point you've
gotta spend the time and answer those questions
either way you can't just go like, you know, willy-nilly
and stand up a server in Azure and then roll all your
on-prem software onto it and then think it's gonna
work out for you  andand be hunky dory as well. Like that too is not having you fall into the pit of success. \- Yeah, it was and they did, I mean to kinda wrap it up, they did end up going with a
server for now I think it's, it was a time crunch, it was
quick, it'll work for now, but it also very much opened eyes to really thinking through maybe
there is something in the future that needs to go into Azure files maybe
in the future we take this and there is some of what we put in files that can go into SharePoint and this is an issue I've run into a lot where people find
themselves in a time crunch. They really want to do that lift and shift file dump type
of migration from on-prem to the cloud without really
taking the time and sitting down and thinking through a lot of what we talked about is does
this belong in a server, does this belong in Azure files, does this belong in SharePoint and how do we need to think about things differently based on where we're gonna go with these files because none of them are an on-premises file
server like you're used to. There's all different
limitations, different constructs, different ways,
how you can work with files, different challenges that you really need to consider when you are working through that type of a migration. \- I guess one of the things
you can do is there's a bunch of, you know, kind of like
worksheets that you can sit down and, and you can think
about like how to go through these things on your own and and start to rationalize
some of it even down to hey should I do the SharePoint
thing versus Azure files versus just you know, SMB share or something like that
and how it comes together. So I, I'll put a link in the
show notes for everybody just for kind of the all up
migration article FRAGER files, which takes you through some
of those considerations like where's the data coming from,
how do your clients access it, what's the metadata
that those clients use? Like do you use full on NTFS permissions, do you use some other kind of ?Do you rely on things like file locks, you know like global file
locks, read-only files. What's your view on
timestamps and how that works? Like how do you want those
to migrate across like think maybe like created time and last access time, things like that. Do you have other non-standard properties that are potentially
associated with those files? Like are they going to work in
a managed share metadata, all that stuff and even
down to like the version of like Windows server that
you potentially run on. Like if you're presenting
SMB shares to clients today, are you doing that on Windows server 2019? Are you doing that on Windows server 2022? Are you doing that on something
older like you running like a really old legacy
version of Windows server, like Windows Server 2012
or something like that? Are you not even running Windows server? Are you running Linux
and presenting like SMB shares from Linux clients? Like how does your environment look today? How does it manifest and how can it come across to the other side? There is this kind of like
crawl, walk, run strategy of hey let's potentially
do a lift and shift and go to a server, maybe
look for managed services later on downstream. Uh, I think generally
like the path to success with the cloud is trying to
get yourself away from servers and into those managed services as long as they fit the constraints
of your requirements and they, they might always not fit the constraints of your requirements. Like you mentioned, you
know, the whole confabulation with having to figure out
sync between a cloud share and a hot cache server over here and how that actually manifests
within the, the the service. Like if that stuff doesn't work for you then it doesn't
work for you, right? Like there, there's a bunch of
different ways to get around that and plan for whatever
the next thing is. \- Do you feel overwhelmed by trying to manage your Office 365 environment? Are you facing unexpected issues that disrupt your company's productivity? Intelligent is here to help
much like you take your car to the mechanic that has
specialized knowledge on how to best keep your car
running Intelligent helps you with your Microsoft cloud environment because that's their expertise. Intelligent keeps up with the latest updates
in the Microsoft cloud to help keep your business running smoothly and ahead of the curve. Whether you are a small organization with just a few users
up to an organization of several thousand employees
they want to partner with you to implement and administer
your Microsoft Cloud technology, visit them at intelligent.com/podcast, that's I-N-T-E-L-L-I-G-I-N k.com/podcast for more information or to schedule a 30
minute call to get started with them today. Remember intelligent focuses
on the Microsoft cloud so you can focus on your business And there are a bunch of
those migration guides. You pulled it up where you're
coming from different sources, whether it's Windows Server 2012, whether you're coming from
a nas, if you're coming from Linux with SMB and then are you going
into that hybrid deployment or are you going into a
cloud only deployment? Different recommendations
around tools to do it, articles to walk through how you
start thinking through what that process is because that's the other
thing is based on the amount of files and where these are going and how often people are using these files and constraints around how
quickly files can move, another thing to think about is how do you get all these files
from on-premises to the cloud or from one location to the
other while not losing data and still allowing people to work. So there's a lot of
different articles guidance around these in this migration SMB and the other thing we haven't
even touched on is migrating to NFS Azure file shares because as your file shares can be SMB or NFS depending on your needs, which is, I mean there's so much to
think about here Scott, like we have all these articles
we thought about talking through and I feel like in
some respects we've only scratched the surface of things to think about in considerations with these file shares. There \- Is a whole bunch. So I think with all things
it's worth taking the time to sit down and read the manual, right? Like go through that. Like I
find myself doing that a lot and you mentioned this like
with this customer like hey they're in a time crunch,
they're potentially like bringing you in for your expertise at
some point, you know, no matter how much expertise like you or I bring to a customer conversation, the customers still need to sit down and digest some of that
information for themselves. Like it's worth it. You know, if you're somebody
who's looking at this stuff and you're going like, oh
my gosh there's you know, a whole bunch of articles that I need to read like yeah sorry, like
you gotta go read a bunch of articles, it's gonna take you an hour to two hours or go watch a video. Like there's tons of videos on YouTube and a bunch of other things
that can get you like to the point where you know
enough to be dangerous rapidly  and that'sreally what you want to
be able to do, right? Like just understand hey I
know enough to be dangerous. You don't have to be like Neo
in the nature matrix, right? Where you get plugged in the first time and you go like I know kung fu. You just need to go
like, oh yeah, I know how to put one foot in front of
the other great, you know, let's get you onto the
next step along the way. \- Oh this was interesting. Did you see this, this article
that was posted in Discord? Mm-hmm . So this
one Robocop these cloud tier,I mean this is something
else to think about, right? Because technically when you, I believe when you copy a
file from your server up to something like data box, it is gonna update the modified date. Those files and data box
are not the same files as what's on premises. So if you try to use
something like Robocopy with a data box, yeah you're
absolutely gonna get different modified dates for those \- .This is where things like go ahead and just extoll the virtues
of your own products. So one of the other things that I walk after is AzCopy, it's
near and dear to my heart. Like I'm, I'm the product
manager for AzCopy. We handle this scenario very, very well. I know there's this section in
the Azure files documentation that says don't use AZ
copy and use robocopy but it doesn't give you a
good answer as to why that is. And I've been trying to hunt this down with the file folks for a while. Like I fundamentally
believe that everything that Robocopy does we do and we actually probably do it better. But you're reading an article that hasn't been updated
on docs in years and years and years that I've just gotta
go find the right person to convince them to convince
them to get there. Like the cool thing about it
like easy copy versus something like a RO robocop or even
a data box is we live and breathe by the Azure files rest API and what methods are presented back in that restful API interface. So we support all those things
like preserving file creation time, preserving last
modified times, like all that stuff just works with
something like AZ copy and it's likely more performant as well. You know use my fake like
dictionary word for the day. Yep. Robocopy is kind of cool but it's not multi-threaded in the way that we are in easy Z copy. Like we basically built a client to we, we built a copy client
that hogs all the resources of the client that you run it on and it's meant to do that like by design, it's a very resource hungry application but it's meant to be multithreaded and just get this stuff done fast and the right way kind of the first time. So we support all those
scenarios and do all that stuff. It's on my list for 2024
to go find whichever person in the files team decided that we were gonna say easy
copy isn't the right tool for this job and either
convince them that it is or if they're convinced
that it's not, I'll go fix that in easy copy and I'll make it better than robocopy. That \- Is interesting because this
migrate SMB to Azure files, everything that they have in here to migrate is all Azure file sync, Azure data box and robo copy. They never mention okay
an Azure storage mover, they don't ever mention AC copy in here. It's also interesting I
don't uh see anywhere in here where they say data box and robocopy, if you're using databox, the recommendation is Azure
file sync, which again probably I would think accomplishes
that better than Robocop does and the way it would maybe
synchronize those files and handle that is use databox to get the bulk of your files. I mean if you're moving
terabytes, petabytes, my my daughter asked me what starts coming after you get into like it wasn't bytes but it was when you start
getting up into like numbers above trillion in quadrillion and all of those
really big numbers.\- Petabytes. Is that Zetabytes? Yeah. Yeah , . Lots of zeroes\- But once you start getting
into those like Azure file sync or AZ copy or something like that
just is not gonna work due to the sheer amount of data and the time it would take
where I get it you have to use a data box but I think
that goes back into like with this person in Reddit
was talking about is they use Databox and robocop technically
if you go look at the documentation that is not
any of those recommendations for Microsoft is to use
robocop after databox. It's always Azure file sync and if they listen to those
podcasts they would know that they could use AZ copy as well. We \- Should talk about this
one maybe at some point too. Put it on the backlog. Oh \- You just added one. I want everybody to know that
was not me that said that. That was Scott . Okay, keep going.\- We should talk about online
versus offline migrations. Kind of like the data
box versus AZ copy versus whatever data factory kind of thing. I think there's a general misconception that if you have a lot of data
that it's gonna be quicker for you to do something like databox, like you mentioned like terabyte to potentially like
petabyte scale migration. I actually wouldn't use a data box for most petabyte scale migrations. I would do those as online migrations and ensure that we have kind
of a big enough pipe in place to, to get all that stuff
working and and ready to go. Like I know there's customers
out there who they go like, oh I've got like 10
terabytes or 20 terabytes or a hundred terabytes of
data and that's a whole bunch. I work with the other like
broad end of customers, like you're at one end of
the spectrum on that side and I'd argue like potentially
like quite small like you know like we'd rather be working with like petabyte scale customers and I've seen customers that even like with AZ copy they're copying
tens of petabytes a week, you know to Azure for a single workload just to get those up there. Like there are workloads
that are at that scale and they're doing online migrations and they're doing it quite successfully. So yeah, don't view like Databox
as an end all be all a lot of the time like once you look at it and you look at like the
shipping times and the turnaround and the potential loss of fidelity along the way when it comes to things like metadata that
you'd really might want to consider online migration along the way and there's a whole bunch
of tools particularly for like Azure files that
can potentially get you there or just for object storage in general. \- Alright. And even though the
docs don't recommend AZ copy Scott, you can take Solace and the fact that chat GPT
recommends using AZ copy ,\- There you go. Like I said, this is on my my 2024 list. I don't know like a lot of the files documentation
was written kind of like before my time with AZ copy and a lot of the things that they call out like hey
you're gonna lose some fidelity. Like the only way that you lose
fidelity is if the rest API doesn't support something
which you know, the rest of API doesn't support any everything. There have been gaps there and we've been kind of
pushing the files team to make those things better and they have been like they
recently introduced OAuth over rest, so on files rest you
can actually do OAuth now, which is an interesting thing and opens up, opens up a
whole bunch of broad scenarios to like our SDK customers and ultimately tools like easy copy or or anything like that along the way. So yeah, yeah, put it in the backlog. We should come back maybe like mid-year and talk about online
versus offline migrations. \- Sounds like a plan. We
will add it to the list. Scott is adding this to the list for once instead of me .But I think does that
wrap us up for today? Anything else that likely \- Does wrap us up for today? \- Alright, well thank you Scott. This is an interesting discussion and we didn't even get into
comparing this to SharePoint, which we do have other podcast episodes. If you're curious and more of a SharePoint versus
Azure files discussion, we can go hunt down one of those episodes. I don't know that some of the guidance, there's changed a whole lot, but we'll put that in the show
notes if there's a topic you want us to dive deeper into. We have not done an
outstanding job either, Scott, of we don't get a ton
of listener questions, but we haven't always done a great job of addressing them timely. We should also add that to our 2024 goals of if there is a topic someone
wants more of a deep dive on to let us know and we will do a better job than
maybe we have in the past of addressing those questions
and pulling some of those in. So you can reach out via
probably threads, Mastodon, iWatch, Twitter, Scott
does not watch Twitter or just head over to our
website, ms cloud it pro.com and look for the contact form and send us recommendations there. Or if you're one of
the members in Discord, you can always post stuff there as well. But with that Scott, we will wrap up on 2023 from a live perspective and welcome to 2024 to those of you listening to the recording. Perfect. Thanks Ben. Thanks
God, If you enjoyed the podcast, go leave us a five star rating in iTunes. It helps to get the word out so more IT pros can learn
about Office 365 and Azure. If you have any questions you
want us to address on the show or feedback about the show, feel free to reach out via our website,
Twitter, or Facebook. Thanks again for listening
and have a great day.

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##### Episode 367 – Azure Files vs a Server with an SMB Share

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In Episode 367, Ben and Scott kick off 2024 with a discussion of Azure Files. They start out reviewing a customer scenario Ben encountered and how they would approach it, breaking down the options available with Azure Files, hosting traditional SMB shares in Azure, and how a hybrid deployment can be the best of both worlds.

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## [Episode 361 – TLS updates in Azure](/content/episode361/index.html)

by [Scott](/content/author/scottmsclouditpro/ "Posts by Scott"/index.html) \| Nov 23, 2023 \| [Podcast](/content/category/podcast/index.html)

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\- Welcome to episode 361 of the Microsoft Cloud IT Pro podcast recorded live on November 6th, 2023. This is a show about Microsoft 365 and Azure from the perspective of it pros and end users where we
discuss a topic or recent news and how it relates to you. We are back this week with
some more KQL goodness as Ben discusses how he
used Azure Data Explorer with some exchange email analysis. And Scott shares some additional
tips and tricks for custo. They also discuss some upcoming changes to various Azure services
when it comes to TLS 1.0, 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3. Okay, so we don't need to talk about lights on my face anymore. Do you wanna talk about your
suggestion that I followed because you gave yourself
a bit of a pat on the back for this one and I have to admit you had a
really good idea. Yeah, I \- Think this is a first, so
folks need to know that well, that you actually listened to
me that Ben and I chat back and forth throughout the week
and generally break things and make fun of each other with the different things we're breaking. So you were having a
little bit of a conniption, you were dealing with some Excel files and you were kind of talking about how they were getting into
the hundreds of thousands, the millions of rows and you needed to analyze some data in there and I threw out why not just use Custo. Yes. So tell me about
your CSV journey and custo and how it did or did
not work out for you. \- Custo itself worked out great. My log files hit or miss a little bit, but essentially what I
was doing, I have a client that we are working on
an exchange migration for from on-premises to Office 365. And we were going down this
whole debate of do we do hybrid? Do we do a cutover, bunch of details around it we don't need to get into. But essentially it was they
have a bunch of devices, scanners, printers, services and they are in an unfortunate situation where they don't have a
complete grasp on everything that's connecting to their
on-prem exchange server. So it was how can we figure
out all of the different services, devices, et
cetera, that are relaying through this on-prem exchange
server that we need to account for when we go to Exchange online. So we used, there's a
handy commandlet, it is only exchange on premises. It is get mess, get message tracking log that essentially gets
like a log of every email that goes through the server. So I ran this against a server and this is the text message that I sent you was it came back with a 350 meg ish file, I believe 350 megs, 434 rows in my CSV file of emails, 331 Megs, 450,000 rows .I was like, what could possibly go wrong? Trying to open the CSV file on a computer, \-  easy peasy and
then let's complicate thingsby you're on a Mac and it behaves a little
weird with Excel anyway, so, \- But I have 128 gigs of RAM
and a whole bunch of cores because why not? But needless to say, it still
does not perform super great. And then after the fact I
realized that wait a minute, this was just one exchange
server that they told me about. They have two other ones
and this get message tracking log only pulls it
from the server you're on unless you pass a parameter to get it from a server at a time. So I went through the other three servers and this was like the
middle of the road CSV. There was another one I
got from another server that was like 500 megs and
another one that was uh, 250 megs or something all combined. It was 1.6 million rows of
data of exchange tracking logs and you're, you were like, to
your point, throw it in KQL and huh you know what,
Scott's actually a smart guy. Maybe I should pay attention to him and listen to him every once in a while. So that's what I did. I actually
used Azure Data Explorer and the handy little data ingestion, which makes it super quick. I mean I had the advantage, all three files are from
Exchange exact same format. So I just went and did a little Azure Data
Explorer configuration, said go upload these three CSV files into this one table and I can add all three
of 'em at once and hit go. And it took a little bit because I had to upload
like 1.2 gigs of CSVs to Azure Data Explorer. But let me tell you, going through and starting to write queries
to find distinct IP addresses and to find IP addresses that
messages were coming from that only had a single sender
which indicated like some other service or something that wasn't just here's the
bulk email from everybody. It actually worked out really well Scott, to sort through it. There was not some data, there was some data I
would've liked to see in there to better differentiate
from something relaying through exchange versus
Outlook, like to be able to see the actual client connection versus IP address and sender. And I'm still digging through some data but that had nothing
to do with KQL and CSV. It's purely what get message
tracking log contains and just not quite the level of data detail I wanted in it. But in terms of being able to
analyze it and sort through it and all of that, Azure Data
Explorer KQL was kind of fun. It actually, it works really well for doing this type of thing. It's \- Super easy to do, especially if you only
have a couple million, even a couple billion records. Like it's not huge or massive. You can stand up a a party
cluster basically really quick and get going with it. So we did this on the
other YouTube channel or or to the cloud channel. We kind of did a one click ingestion and looked at how easy
some of this stuff is. But I love that you were able to take that and turn it around into
something practical. Kusto is near and dear to
my heart unfortunately. Well I, I dunno, fortunately, unfortunately I spend all my
time in Custo  Fridaylast week I was trying,
we collect some telemetry, very similar kind of thing
about clients like what's your user agent that's coming through? What are oss, are you
on? Things like that. And being in Azure storage, we get billions upon billions of requests. And so I was trying to
wrangle this query for one day of data where it was
returning something like 5 billion records in it. It's kind of a fun thing 'cause it's actually able to kind of wrangle it and put it together. Especially if you can think about doing your queries the right way. I'm gonna give you a
quick kind of pro tip. \- Okay.
\- For custo specifically, so this is one that I just learned on Friday and it's super helpful
when you're dealing with text in custo like a very long uh, a very long string record. So think like maybe
something spits out a string where it's actually comma
separated like in the string. So maybe it says like resource equals X comma client IP equals blah blah blah. And it's not broken out
into different columns. So there's this operator in custo which is called parse ware. So you can do all sorts
of parsing in custo. You can parse JSON and you
can parse version numbers and parse text and but use
this parse ware operator and you can actually
point it at that column. That's the big string and
you can throw RegX at it and it extracts the data out
of that string as you need by RegX and it turns it into
calculated columns on the fly and it's super performance. So the way you would use
this is, like I said, you have this big long string
that you need to decompose. Like maybe you're gonna, we're gonna extend it
into multiple columns and do an extend extract,
extend extract, extend extract. Yep. Which is typically how I go about it, which is super resource intensive, but this parse wear thing,
you just throw a RegX at it or multiple RegX is even 'cause you can do like RegX per extracted column kind of thing. Super duper cool. I was having a lot of
fun with that. Wonder \- If this would work. I was just looking at my data because I have one column in here. Oh see it didn't pull that out. I don't see it in there but I
have seen that even in my CSV where it's, and I've seen it in other CSVs that you get from Microsoft
where it's absolutely that it's like ACSV. But then the last column is
like the context or the data and it's, you have your curly brackets that are wrapping like
a monster Jason string or an embedded, it's like
ACSV embedded in the CSV. So \- Another way I, I'll give
you a practical use case. So I have a table that tracks
storage account names. Yep. And as part of, so there's
a column called account name and in that column the account
name is not just the account name like the string like my account name, it's my account name semicolon. And then a Unix date time
which is the date time that the account was created. Uh, so somebody made the
conscientious decision when they stood up this table that they were going to include the create time
of the account as part of the account name just so we
could have cardinality there and maintain uniqueness. 'cause you know I could
create an account today and then 30 days later and
then I delete it the same day and then 30 days later you
go account, create an account with the same name over
in your subscription. Technically two different accounts. But I'm always going through this table and I'm doing this
thing where I say, okay, take account name, split it on semicolon and then grab like the
first part of the array and then grab the second part of the array 'cause I want account name and create time as two separate columns. And now with this parse
wear thing, I just go in and I say pars wear account name and then I can just throw a regex in and automatically split on
the semicolon all in one step without having to extend out into multiple additional
calculated columns on the fly. Which it turns out is like
a nicety that you just kind of have to type less but
it's also more performant because you're basically relying
on a wear C clause rather than calculating after the wear. And your wearers tend to kind
of be compute heavy anyway. So why not do both at once and
have your cake and eat it too \- Nifty. I just looked through my data, my source context one is
a mess in this exchange. So this would not really
work for source context because I don't, you know what
the data you get out is nice but let me tell you,
some of the data is so inconsistent in some of these cases, like this source context, \- I shall pretend I'm surprised \- One of it's one long string and then another email has like semicolon delimited stuff in it. And then another one is
just completely blank. And I mean I get it, your source
context changes from email to email but it makes it a
little bit challenging sometimes to parse through it when
there's no uniformity to the data format in that column or none that I've can
decipher super easily. \- It's a little rough if you
gotta wrangle it that way. So maybe you wanna know,
like my other pro tip that I do in cases like that is custo has a case statement selector, I don't know if you've ever used this. So sometimes I'll extend
columns and then based on case, because when you do a case statement, you're basically doing if this
then that, if this, then that and all the way down to having a default. But the cool thing is your predicate, like your if statement
can be different for each and every case within that case statement. So you could have in that case where the, like the data's a little bit
different between the two. You could say okay, case A when it meets this
predicate then do this. But then when it meets
this other predicate then format it like this. But if it does this other
predicate format it like this and then maybe do yeah
and then maybe do unknown or dump something out the
other side doesn't work with billions and billions of records. I've found like it is a little
more than a little compute heavy but couple billion, couple hundred million like not a problem, doesn't even break a sweat. \- So if I can figure out a way to define my cases, I could use that. \- Yes. If you have a predicate and you can figure out like basically what that statement is, like
that wearer statement and split it out, you could technically put it all in the same column. \- Nifty more stuff to play with, more data to go dig through. Do you feel overwhelmed by trying to manage your Office 365 environment? Are you facing unexpected issues that disrupt your company's productivity? Intelligent is here to help
much like you take your car to the mechanic that has
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running Intelligent helps you with your Microsoft cloud environment because that's their expertise. Intelligent keeps up with the latest updates
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schedule a 30 minute call to get started with them today, remember intelligent focuses
on the Microsoft cloud so you can focus on your business. Oh, so where do we go from here Scott? We could go one or two directions, we could go talk about some changes to TLS or we could continue down
client stories from Ben \- .It's your show. Take your \- Pick. No you, I picked the first topic
you get to pick if you want to hear more client cases from Ben or if you wanna talk about TLS. \- Why don't we talk about TLS? Okay. I've had some fun at work with
TLS the last couple weeks. So there's a bunch of
services in Azure. There \- Are a bunch of services in Azure \- .Yes, there are a bunch
of services in Azure. I was gonna say, let's take a step back. So we have this kind
of operating principle of being secure by default. So maybe at some point we should come back and talk about the memo that just came out that was published about Brad Smith and our security org that kind
of talks about our principles for how we approach secure by default security first for our customers. So you're gonna start to see more and more of this I think
across Azure, certainly Azure, like I'm close to it, you'll see it across like M 365, 0 365, the the entire stack. Things are gonna start to
get more, not locked down but they're gonna get uh, put into a better default position, which could mean more work
for you as a customer. So, so I think customers are gonna need to pay attention to this. So one of the first ones to kind of hit is that TLS is changing in
a whole bunch of places with regard to minimum supported TLS versions first of all. So there's services today
that support like T LSS one T LS 1.0 1.1, 1.2 and then you're also gonna be see kind of forward looking changes in
what's coming down the pipe as far as having access
to newer TLS versions. Well newer in that
they've been out a while and we're kind of catching
up on them right now. So particularly with TLS 1.3. So the first one that's
near and dear to my heart is in storage land we have announced that TLS 1.2 is going to become the minimum TLS version for all Azure storage accounts moving forward after November 1st, 2024. And it's not just moving forward, it's also we're
deprecating support for 1.0 and 1.1 for existing accounts as well. So that's something that folks need to potentially take a lookout for. So if you have pinned ATLS
version like you've pinned to TLS 1.0 or 1.1 and you're doing that today,
you have a year, you have until November 1st, 2024 to go ahead and flip the switch and get over to at least TLS 1.2 as a minimum supported version. \- Yeah and I sent you a text on this one because I'm curious if
somebody's listening and has this information. I have not been able to find it but there were some
Microsoft Cloud workshops around high availability that I worked on and that are still out there and to the best of my knowledge, okay, backwards a step now I'm going a step backwards  SQL server,\- It's our thing today. Yeah \- It is SQL Server. If you're doing a high
availability cluster and you want a cloud witness for your SQL high availability, you can set it up with a storage count. It's all built right into SQL Server. However, if you do not do TLS 1.0, if you actually do 1.1 or 1.2 a SQL server does not use T LSS 1.2 or will not work with T LSS 1.1 or 1.0 No it won't work with 1.2 or 1.1 when using an Azure storage account for your cloud witness. I have not seen anywhere
across the intro webs where the SQL team has
updated SQL server so that it will work with
T LSS 1.2 in a storage account for that cloud witness. Yet what that means is if there's somebody
from the SQL Server team that's listening to this, I
would recommend making some changes to SQL Server
to support T LSS 1.2. Are you gonna have a whole
bunch of high availability SQL instances in Azure using
an Azure storage account for your cloud witness
that are going to break come October 31st, 2024? And then along with that,
I don't know which versions of SQL they would go back and add this into SQL's
expensive depending on how you license it and how
you set it up in Azure. I know a lot of people
still running old versions of SQL Server, people
tend to put SQL server up and as long as it's working
they don't tend to touch it until it's out of support. I'm curious to see how one, I don't know how many people use a cloud witness for high availability
SQL servers and Azure, but I'm curious to see
what effect this has in that particular scenario. Just 'cause it's one in
particular that I was aware of and have come across
regularly where TLS 1.1 and 1.2 aren't supported yet, particularly around cloud storage. \- I would've assumed
this one would've been fixed a couple years ago. So there was a SQL server has lagged in some areas
in the past, so, so I, it's been a while since I've
done a cloud witness so I know for backups, so doing like backpack
files over to SQL Server. Yep. That used to be problematic as well because that from a SQL to a storage account connection
did not support TLS 1.2 but they've basically patched
and cumulative updated and hot fixed their way out of that one. I would have to go play with
a cloud witness and see, \- Maybe we should do this,
maybe we should go do a, \- It's been a hot minute
since I've tried one but maybe \- We should go do a YouTube video. It's \- A good call out. And fortuitous timing, I
think we're going to talk to the sequel team in a week or two here to do our big powwow. So , I should bring it up with 'em,\- Ask them about this one because again, I couldn't find anything and I have the same assumption as you. I'm like, I would think with
sql, whatever we're on now 20, are we on 2022? 2019 SQL subscription edition because that's what we're doing
with everything now ,I would've doubt they
would've fixed this given to your point how much Microsoft
has been trying to get rid of 1.0 1.1 and really
use 1.2 for everything. But I am not a hundred percent sure 'cause I can't find anything documented nor have I necessarily gone and tried this with the
most recent up-to-date patched version of sql. And I would be also be curious
like how far back you can go before it would break. So let me know, go talk to the SQL team, ask them the hard questions. \- I would tend to think most of this is patched most of the way out. So I'll throw a link over in
the chat just so you have it and you can maybe take a look through and let me know if I'm off there. But it looks like all the
current supported major versions have been patched up to TLS 1.2. Now that being said, no
place in that article of known issues that it fixes. Does it call out cloud witnesses? So mileage might vary with
that. May vary with that one. \- Alright, we're gonna go
do some testing sometime, but yeah I've, if you \- Have the ability to
spin up a cloud witness real quick, I wanna try it out. \- I'm not gonna do it right now. We'll have to do it on a YouTube channel. We can go through the one
of those MCWs or something or part of the way through it
'cause that one's a long one. All right. Okay, other TLS stuff. So \- We've got TLS 1.2 for storage is going to become the minimum supported,
per supported version. That is November 1st, 2024. The other TLS thing that is out there is you're gonna start to see
services also flip over to TLS 1.3 and the first one
that I saw announced so far is Azure App Service. So app service for web apps, which includes your apps
service plans, which also run for things like functions and logic apps as well. So this is kind of
rolling out slowly TLS 1.3 for app service, like your
underlying kind of compute and hosting engine is
starting to roll out now. It's going to be rolling
out over the course of the remainder of what
we have here in 2023 and 2024 and rollouts worldwide. I'll put a link in in the
show notes for everybody to go and take a look and see
what's going on there. But basically kind of it
goes through canary staging and the end user
acceptance, all that stuff. And it'll hit us clients first, which is an interesting
one given the presence of some really big retailers
and things and coming into the
holiday season, who knows who runs preview and who
runs on supported GA stuff. So we shall see. But I have seen customers here
get into trouble like when they do pinning for
things like TLS versions, when they do cert pinning,
all that kind of stuff. Like I understand why it needs to be done, but it's a call out that
your runway is potentially limited with some of these things. \- Yeah, well it looks like
they already started rolling it out the end of October. October 23rd. It began rolling out and like you said, kind of
through the end of the year and that's the preview, we will continue rolling
out TLS sometime early 2024. Yeah, but that's all under the preview. Will it just be in preview then yet through January, 2024 is
the way I would read this. \- That's the way I, I read it for now. So I think it's a smart
move to do it that way. So one of the things that
happens is now you're going to have access not just to TLS 1.3 but to new cipher suites within T LSS 1.3. So you might also have a
dependency within your stack on a certain cipher suite that
you've been waiting for. So now it gives you the chance
to kind of potentially play around with those and see what's what and what's gonna work
and what's gonna break. \- So yes and I would expect, I
mean app service for web apps and then functions and logic apps going at the same time kind of makes sense since they
all run on the same service. \- Funny enough, it's just web apps though. It it, so it's the kind of
public compute side of web apps. It is not A-S-E-A-S-E-V one
is still kicking around there. V two is out and about as well. And surprisingly TLS 1.3 is not there yet. So again, your mileage may vary huh? In the ever landing cha
ev ever changing land of Azure previews. \- Yes. And I would imagine
we'll start seeing more TLS 1.3 stuff coming. We have ignite. Well by the
time people hear this episode, unless we switch orders, Scott Ignite may have already happened. Well by the time they hear this one Ignite will have happened. Whether we have an Ignite
episode before this one or not, we'll have to play with schedules because Ignite is happening a
week from when we're recording this essentially. Yes, \- Rapidly approaching. \- We shall see. Maybe
there will be some TLS 1.3 stuff at Ignite. I think there will be some interesting announcements coming out there. Any other TLS stuff you
wanna talk about? Those \- Are the big ones that
I'm aware of so far. We'll see where the rest come in. So \- We're gonna talk about one
more deprecation that has kind of Ben's client woes. We don't need to get
into all my client woes around this particular announcement. This is almost sort of
an I told you so not to this particular client
but to other people because I have been saying this for years, but there was an article today, Microsoft Deprecates three
features in Windows 11 version 23 H two. And guess which one of those features is? Scott, you wouldn't guess if
I wouldn't have told you this. \- I've been waiting for
this one to drop for a long. Like it was inevitable
that this one comes like \- It's totally, and I told you so it's going to happen. Yes, \- The web client web dev
is finally going away. Woe be to those who
continue to use SharePoint and file explore views. \- Yes. And I have been, there is one client I've been
having this discussion with and they're like, but it works to open and file explore on one computer and not on another computer. And I'm like, why are we even trying this? Microsoft should have taken,
I mean web dev is going away. To be fair, Microsoft
should have taken this out of the SharePoint UI like the day after they came out with it because it's been giving me
woes and heartburnand all of the bad things
since the day it came out because of all the weirdness,
particularly with SharePoint. There's always been weirdness
around file modified dates on functionality because it's not
really doing a sync then it's opening it like a file server and there are still
people that try to use it and people that try to use it. I say stop. It's going to go away. Microsoft has at least
labeled it Legacy up until today, November 6th. But you should not be using web dev to open files and SharePoint. And now I finally have
something to point to and say you really should not
be using web dev to open files and SharePoint because it has now been deprecated in Windows. There have been issues
with it now for a while, ever since Edge came out because it is a feature, at
least it's in SharePoint. I don't know. I would assume
it would affect other places too because it's part of
the HTTP, the hypertext transfer protocol for those of
you that have always heard it and never actually known what
HTP stood for, where you had to use Internet Explorer
to even use web dev. So as Edge has come out on chromium and they've started
pulling out some of the IE. Supportability stuff and IE
has started getting deprecated and support for IE has gone away. Web dev in Evolve itself has
already started getting a bit unpredictable because of
losing browser support. \- Just a little unpredictable. \- Yeah. Yeah. A little more
unpredictable than it's been since 2003. But yes, now it is gone.
We can wave goodbye to it. And if you're still using
it, please stop once and for all , even if
it still works on Windows 10and you have no plans to
upgrade to Windows 11, just \- Stop. That's the plea, huh? Please, \- That's
\- The plea. Just stop. \- Please just stop before I
start crying on the podcast. \- But won't you think
of the files come on. \- I do not care for the files or the pain that goes
with dealing with files that are opened over web dev or mapped network drives
that are SharePoint because we've had, and we
can go find other episodes. We have talked at length
about this so we don't need to get into that of why
SharePoint is not a network file share, but it is not a network file share, therefore WebDAV should not be a thing nor should interacting
with SharePoint files in that way be a thing. End of soap box off the soap box. \- End of soap box. Well
so the interesting thing that happens here, ,I always kind of cringe a little bit. So this is a change that's
coming in Windows 11. It's not something that's
like being back ported. 'cause we're so far gone from Windows 10 and unfortunately there's
still lots of people that run Windows 10 as well. So they're in the clear I guess \- Is Windows seven still
kicking around out there? \- I imagine it is. I probably have one or
two former employers who are still running fleets
of desktops on Windows seven because they can, I mean Windows CE is still
kicking around, right? Like I don't know how it
is in other countries, but over here in the US it
powers your favorite uh ATM. \- Tim, what about Windows Me?
We can get on the Windows. \- That was the one with
the good startup sound. \- Yeah, Sean said in Discord. Oh it is unfortunately about Windows xp. So yes, windows XP is still
alive and kicking as well. , that's a whole
other topic of conversation.That one's been outta
support for how many years? \- For one or two hot minutes now. \- Yeah, so that is I think our news, oh, one last bullet points Scott. We don't need to talk about this either. We mentioned in a previous episode, and I'm not gonna say last in
case these get out of order with Ignite the automatic
conditional access policies and Entra being created by Microsoft. And I didn't have a good reference article for it today on November 6th. Microsoft did come out
with a blog post about it. So we'll throw a link to the, that blog post in the show
notes if anybody wanted to see the Microsoft official
announcement today rather than the stuff that I found on
the socials when we recorded that other episode. Perfect. \- I've been looking out
for that one. Good catch. \- You got it. And finally,
girls Who Code Scott or Fundraiser Girls \- Who code tis the season of giving help a young woman in your life or contribute to some other
young woman's career to enter the wonderful field
of information technology and give to Girls Who Code. So if you go to give dot girls who code.com/ms cloud IT
Pro, you can contribute to our campaign or go ahead and contribute to another
campaign for Girls Who Code if you so desire, if you get like a match at work or things like that. But yeah, go ahead and make it happen. I would love to see us raise
some money for Girls Who code through the podcast once again this year. \- Yes. And try to beat last year's goal. So by December 31 we're
gonna see if we can better what we did last year with those donations to Girls Who Code. So see what we can do. And with that Scott, we
can sign off for the day. \- Excellent. . Well Idon't get to sign off for the day. I'm going to Redmond for a work trip. So I've worked for Microsoft for three coming on three years now and I've never met anybody I work with and I'm going on my first work trip. So that kind of came in hot and I had to book tickets the last minute. But uh, I am going to Redmond tomorrow and
I'll be there for a week. So that'll be fun. It \- Just clicked. Scott, you're leaving
right before Ignite then. \- Totally. So I think Ignite
like the sessions start on the 14th through the 15th. I'll be flying back in a red
eye on the 14th. . Yeah,\- You should have just
stayed two extra days. \- Holidays are coming up.
I I got another vacation. I gotta get to you gotta All right. My wife would be mad at me. Sounds good. My dogs will be mad at me. My
kids will be mad at me. Hey \- Scott, I won't be mad at you. \- Okay, that's good. I appreciate it. \- I'm here for you. Alright,
well enjoy your trip. Safe travels. Say hello to
all the folks in Redmond for us Bug the sequel
team about cloud witnesses and travel safe and we
will see you next week for Ignite when we talk about all the fun stuff from that. All \- Right, sounds good. Thanks Ben. \- If you enjoyed the podcast, go leave us a five star rating in iTunes. It helps to get the word out so more IT pros can learn
about Office 365 and Azure. If you have any questions you
want us to address on the show or feedback about the show, feel free to reach out via our website,
Twitter, or Facebook. Thanks again for listening
and have a great day.

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##### Episode 361 – TLS updates in Azure

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## [Episode 350 – Take a look, it’s in a book, or in a Microsoft Learn exam](/content/episode350/index.html)

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Welcome to episode 350 of the
Microsoft Cloud IT Pro Podcast recorded live on August 25th, 2023. This is a show about Microsoft 365 and
Azure from the perspective of it pros and end users where we discuss a topic where
recent news and how it relates to you teams, channels. It's one of Ben's recent frustrations
with some of the feature ambiguity between the various types of channels available. Ben and Scott also talk about the
new open book policy or Microsoft learn policy for taking
Microsoft exams. Finally, they wrap up with a new feature
release near and dear to Scott's heart, giving you a simplified experience for
creating and managing C D N endpoints for Azure storage using Azure front door. We need to have a segment,
Scott. So on our podcast, we should start a Ben's weekly rant. Stop. It's your show. Like
you can do whatever you want. Like I joined to provide
color commentary so. Or to get me all riled. Up, you wanna segment like I'll put some
sound effects in there or something and we'll be good of. Ben's weekly rant. Do you know
what Ben's weekly rant is today? I don't know why I didn't
realize this before. Ben's weekly rant today. I feel like I should have known about
this or I would've encountered this before. My weekly rant today has to do
with an overview of teams and channels and Microsoft
teams. And to be fair, I actually have lots of rants about
teams and channels and Microsoft teams and the way this has been implemented. But I had an interesting one that I hit
today and I honestly don't know why I haven't hit this one before or
why I didn't realize this before. Microsoft is all about
shared channels for like private channels. 'cause you
can do your own security on it. It creates its own SharePoint site,
blah blah blah, blah blah, blah. And did you like all the blah blah
blah blah blahs And I loved it. I work with some contractors
like I have a few contractors, different companies. I partner with all of that and we have
started using shared channels because in that case a shared channel is nice. We set up all the A a D stuff
and I share my channel with them so that they don't have to do all
the tenant jumping stuff in order to get to content for a client that we
might be working on together. Well, today I had such a right. Makes sense. Very reasonable. That's what I thought. So today I had such a channel and all
of a sudden I had a file and I'm like, sweet, we're done with this.
Now I can share it to a client. It doesn't work because if you go look
at the channel feature comparison, shared channels work great for external
participant B two B direct connect, all of that. But guess what cannot be
added to a shared channel. A guest user. . You like wanna have
your cake and eat it too. So.Right, but if my client is not set up for B two
B direct connect and I don't wanna add with him and I wanna share a file with
him that we've been working on in teams, I can't do it anymore. Now I have to go put it
somewhere else or go back to, let me email you this
file or something else. And I just get irritated by that today
because I wanted to have shared channels for when I work with contractors
where it's all hunky dory. But I also wanted to be able to add a
guest to it so that I could share a file with a guest, which
seemed very logical to me. And they have this overview
of this channel feature comparison table. And I think it just even
reiterated to me how I would say discombobulated, the whole channel infrastructure
and setup really is when it comes to teams. And I feel like you should
not have to think this much or put this much planning into
what type of channel do I want? Like I should have, apps is another
one. This is my other pet peeve. Like I can't add apps, I can't add planner if I wanna do task
management in a private channel or a shared channel and I wanna use planner,
I don't use planner for this reason, but if I did I should be able to add it. Like the differentiation between standard
private and shared should absolutely be a security construct, not a, we have a list of 15 things and
depending on what you wanna do before, you won't go create a channel. You should go through this list of 15
things and figure out exactly what you wanna do and if for some reason what you
wanna do doesn't work out. Tough luck. .Well I mean arguably sharing with an
external guest is a security thing. Yes. Okay. So it, yes, it's a security thing but it's also
not like shared channels should implement B two B stuff but I don't feel
like it should take away other stuff. So I guess. It's hard. Yeah, it's it's,
it's a balance thing like, and there's weird stuff too. The the one I've run into with shared
channels and I guess I always just thought it was like a gap and I didn't know why
I didn't know it was documented was the analytics thing. Like if you ever
play around with like team analytics, like I have a thing where we have a
internal team where you, you know, we let like our field and technical
communities come in and one of the KPIs we have is like, Hey, how much growth
over time can we drive in this team? Like how many posts can we drive? What
are the types of engagement we get? How many members do we add month over
month and interactions and things like that. And like it's a nightmare to, to get the data and put it together and
I have to do a bunch of it manually and it's painful and it and it hurts.
TE teams are just weird in, in general. I ran into another
interesting one,  in SharePoint.So I, I was working on a project with
someone and they had created some files like think like word
documents, PowerPoints, things like that over in their
OneDrive. Totally valid thing, right? Like you create it in your OneDrive, like that's quite often
like where documents start
for me and then over time I take them and I either physically
move them or I do the save as a copy thing and I save it into another
site and then I just delete the one in my OneDrive so I don't have two copies of
it and multiple things running around. So I'm working on this
project with this person, I say Hey can you come and you know, I see you have these
files in your OneDrive, like they're pretty much canonical at
this point. Like we've iterated on them, they're done, can you move them over to
the team site so they're ready to go. Like I have a team site with a
channel and that channel has you know, a folder inside the SharePoint
site, things like that. So it's just go to this
place in SharePoint and
just do like bring the thing over there. And the way that they thought
to do that was to you know, do the thing where you could just add a
new link in the SharePoint site and it creates URL file and they just made that
point to the stuff in their OneDrive and I was like, I can see how functionally you thought
that was the same thing but they're very different things. .I had never seen somebody use URLs
in a SharePoint site that way. And it was just, it was one of those moments where it's
like oh users are gonna do weird things that you just can't account for. . Yeah they really do.I know and I think with
all of this it's hard. Like I also feel for Microsoft
in that respect, right? They created teams that created channels. Arguably they probably had no idea
they were gonna do shared channels and private channels when they first stood
up teams and then they had to try to shoehorn these in. But I think that's where a lot of the
frustration comes up is that as you add on these features, and we've talked about it before where
that initial dependency on groups for security for planner, even when it used to be there for power
BI workspaces kind of backed Microsoft into a corner with some of this stuff. And it really is how do
you get around some of the, it's technical debt, how do you get around some
of that technical debt from
when you first rolled it out to be able to implement these in a
way that to be able to implement these in a way that they work
and work for everybody. And I've seen like the planner one I is
one I've seen a lot and Microsoft said like a year, year and a half ago. Yeah
we're aware of it, we're working on it, we wanna get planner everything. But a
year, year and a half is a long time. Personally I've gone out and
found workarounds. Like I said, I don't use planner, I use Jira because Jira gives
me a lot more flexibility to be able to actually pin tasks to any type
of channel no matter which one it is because I got tired of waiting
for Microsoft to do, it continues. To be a tough space to work in. You're
moving at the speed of the cloud. Yeah, so there's my rant but I would also say
for those of you that are looking at all these channels, like go look at this channel feature
comparison before you stand them up. And unfortunately again to the dismay
of end users don't even know to look at this, right? Like what happens if you have an end
user go spin up a certain type of channel and put a bunch of content in it and
build out a SharePoint site and six months down the road they need to do something
that you can't do in that specific type of channel. You can't convert it like at that
point in time you're doing a channel to channel migration. I don't
even have any good advice. Like do you go tell people to look
at this overview before they spin up channels? I mean there's some stuff as you as an
admin that you can do with sensitivity labels or setting some standardization,
turning certain channels off. But it's kind of a tough spot for
end users to be in to have to know some of these requirements to pick the
right channel if you let users do that in your environment. Yeah, end. Users are never gonna come over
to this documentation. Yeah. Ever. It's like I'm gonna make the argument it
doesn't happen if it's not on support, do microsoft.com. They never find it and
you know the s e O just isn't there for things like this versus
like support Microsoft and even then, like you're still asking the
user to take that extra step. I know I'm not gonna do it .No. Well and again it's not something I spent
a ton of time looking at and thinking about until I hit this
one so I don't know. But. Hey now you know for next time I. Do. And speaking of documentation, Scott, do you know who can start going
to this documentation now in learn.microsoft.com?
There is a new subgroup, a new group of people that can
start visiting said documentation. . I see what you did
there. Do you like that?That was actually one of your Yeah, yeah. It would've been a good transition if
I hadn't called out that I saw what you did there so I, I ruined it for you
but it was one of your better ones. That's okay. Yeah. So we've talked a bunch about
certifications on the show in the past and I dunno about you like they're
near and dear to my heart, right? Like I used to write
books for these things. I certainly trained a bunch of people on
'em like it was my bread and butter for a little bit while a little
while and I paid the bills. But the role-based
certifications for Microsoft exams, you know those things where you
go to a Pearson View site or you know you do 'em at home and you sit
there with your camera on and you got the moderator and they're like, show me what your desk looks like and
you don't have any like paperclips or post-it notes on your desk
do you? And then you know, your kid walks in behind you and
you're disqualified from your test. Those exams are now
moving to a model where you will have access
to learn@microsoft.com. So effectively the docs for the
services that you're dealing with, like back to the example that we just
had here where you were looking at a comparison of features in teams like
that comparison was sitting over and learn@microsoft.com. So that stuff is now going to
be available for test takers directly through the testing
interface. So you know, if you've ever sat down
for a Microsoft exam, you know like your moderator comes over, they spin you up into
this environment and it's, it's locked down and like all you're in
is the exam environment now they'll have links in there where you can optionally
open kind of a split view with a browser tab and go over to learn and search through learn and potentially get
to the information that you need to to which I think is good uh,
for a whole bunch of reasons. One is Microsoft exams are notorious for testing you on the esoteric things
that frankly you don't do day to day. It's like oh I'm going to show you a
multiple choice answer and each one of those answers has a different
set of parameters that all
look very much the same on a PowerShell commandlet.
You're like I don't know, I haven't touched that PowerShell
commandlet in two months and even if I had touched it I was gonna do
GI help or something else
on it to work my way through it and get it to where it needs to be. So now you can potentially
leverage the docks uh, to go ahead and look that up.
So I think that's all good. I think there's still limitations here. So one thing that I think I
would struggle with personally is I don't like Microsoft search. Like I don't think binging search is
a great product and it doesn't return results with the fidelity that I want
that I'm used to in other search engines like Google. Like I'm a, I'm a Google user and I'm used to
queries syntax and Google and the way it returns things for me. So you're not allowed to go to Google
and search and use a random blog, you're stuck to learn.microsoft.com
and kind of the the builtin binging search that comes along with that. The other thing that I think is going to
potentially be painful and trip people up is the certifications don't get updated as often as the documentation is .So there is a very real
possibility that, again, I'll take that example of you're sitting
on a multiple choice question and you've got four answers and they all
have different PowerShell parameters that actually two of those
answers could be right, but it turns out there's only one answer
that's right for the test because maybe the parameters on that commandlet
changed over time and the ones that are surfaced in the dock
are what's right today. But the real answer is what was right
six months ago when this test was written thing. I think that's gonna be
a struggle for folks as well. I'm a big fan of this 'cause I've had the
same thing to your point I like and I, I think this is gonna hit a lot more, at least for me when it comes to
like PowerShell scripts or CLIs or like even some of the intricacies
of maybe how things are named because that is what I do tend to
rely a lot on the docs for I am also a very much a tab complete type
person , I remember .100%. Just enough so that tab complete
works but I don't know the whole commandlet name and to come
into a test and remember it. So I see a lot of advantages to it here. But I also agree or I also think
that you're not going to be able to rely on this to just go in and pass
the exam without knowing your stuff for a couple reasons. One, there is still absolutely the
exact same amount of time. So if you were running into time limits
before when you took these and now you're going to go try to look up all this stuff
and learn to validate your answers, you're going to run out of time. And I had a professor that did
this to us even in college, he would say okay this test open book
everything. I don't care what you take in, you can take in all the
textbooks, all your notes, you can take in anything you want to but
if you don't know it you're not gonna have enough time to pass it. And I wonder if even as some
of these tests get updated, if Microsoft will start taking some of
those approaches with these two where sometimes open book is nice or open learn
in this case because you can go look it up but are they gonna start writing
questions where it's not quite so black and white? And again I still think
you're gonna have to know your stuff. There's also gonna be a temptation to
go in I think and validate that you're answering it properly which could
cause you to run out of time. If you are in there and you're
like, oh I don't really know, let me go look this up and then like 20
minutes later you find the answer that kills a lot of time in a test. So I still say you're gonna have to
know your stuff but I like that it's available because that's how
a lot of people work today. Most people don't have power show command. Let's memorized this chart
of team functionality or some of the skews on what's
included in what licensing. I would venture to guess 95% of the
people that do that on a day-to-day basis don't memorize it,
they just know where it is. But you're also gonna have to get used
to being able to just search using learn and not search using your favorite search
engine of choice or relying on like the community stuff. Like
it's only gonna be the docs, it's not gonna be some of the forums and
tech community stuff that's under learn either. 'cause there are some like blog posts
and stuff that also all fall under that U R L. So it's not YouTube videos,
it's also not GitHub repos, which is interesting depending on
the examination that you're taking. So one place I would say like having
access to GitHub could be helpful would be some of the developer exams
because lots of the samples for development are
actually over on GitHub. Like the high fidelity samples that
are gonna maybe get you to that answer sometimes. So T L D R is, you do have access to this but just
because you have access to this, I don't having not sat and taken one in
the new format yet 'cause like this was just released, I don't think
this makes things any easier. I think it potentially takes away some
of the jitters and anxiety that might come with test taking but it
doesn't take away from the need to still understand the
material, the core concepts. Like you're still gonna have to
study and do all of those things. 'cause even having access to learn means
you still need to go know where and learn to look like am I
looking up a conceptual thing? Am I looking up a how to thing?
Is it more a referential thing? And you're gonna need to know that.
Yeah am I looking at the service docs? Do I need to go look at the calf or
the WAF or some other weird place? Like all all that stuff
kind of comes into play. You're also not gonna have access to other
learn properties like Microsoft q and a and all that stuff as
well. So uh, you know, just keep it in the back of
your head. It'll be interesting. I think it is something that
potentially eases things out. I do wonder how the
proctors are gonna take it. I don't know. Have you ever done one of the online
Pearson exams like back when they shut 'em all down for covid and everything. Like sit at home and do it? Yes. For like not a renewal
but a brand new. Right, but. Actually doing, no I have never done it. Partly because I have way too much
noise in my house and I've heard horror stories about proctors just like shutting
it down as soon as they hear noise with all the family and kids
I have home all day and the amount of tech in my office, like I literally have to go like sit on
our bed in our bedroom or something to do it and even then kids can charging it. So I have never tried
to do an at-home one. So that's a consideration
is like background noise. You have to be in a quiet place.
Your desk has to be cleaned off. Like they ask to, hey can you like move your webcam
down and show a picture of your desk. Like for me I have like a
mirrorless camera up here. I have to unmount it and like
wave it around  uh,or I just go grab like a U S B webcam
from the kids so you know I can pick it up and make it easier. Yeah. But the other thing that they watch
for is like they're watching your body movement and your eyes
and things like that. And if you're looking to the side too
much, if your eyes are flittering around, like they think you're getting into
the mode where you're cheating, right? You could have somebody who wasn't there
before and now they're in the room and they walked up behind you
and they're over there. So I wonder how they're gonna do things
like that. Like many of us are on, you know like multi-monitor setups, like I've got a 32 inch
monitor in front of me. So for me to look in like one
corner to the other corner, like my head is going all the
way back and forth, right? Right. And I could be looking at something else
even though there's only a wall behind me and there's really
nobody or nothing there. So I wonder how they're
treat that piece of it. 'cause it sounds like they're still
gonna have the online moderators and, and that makes sense to me for
for the at-home exams at least. So we'll we'll see how
some of this stuff goes. But all in all I think
it's good stuff. Yeah, it does only apply to the
role-based exams and not the fundamentals. Yes, the role-based
and the specialty exams. So things like Azure
administrator, Azure developer, M 365 administrator, that stuff, those are all role-based exams and then
you've got like networking, a V s exams, A V D, things like that
are all specialties. Yeah, to your point too, I think even if you're reading on
learn right your eyes tend to flitter, you tend to just get
different facial expressions. If you're reading learn much
like you would be cheating. So that will be interesting. I think I was thinking through
this as you were talking to, I think my strategy and what I
would recommend people do I think is go take the exam just like you
normally would. Like don't look up, learn as you're going through it,
go through answer the questions. The ones and I do this already,
the ones you're not sure of, I mark 'em to go back and review later.
So I think I'd go do the whole exam, mark the ones that I wanna review later
and then come back and if there's time hit the ones I wanna
review and look up, use, learn to see if I can help solidify those
answers on the ones I wasn't sure of the ones I wanted to review versus trying
to pull up learn as I'm going through each one of 'em. We'll. See, I think it'll work better at
home for most folks in this model. Like the other thing that I uh, comes to mind is most
Pearson locations are pretty trashy . Like they're in
random places sometimes, right?Like hey go to this weird office building
in the back of this office park and  the door is locked and and it's
like a skeevy place and you're like, uh,I don't know about this. Or they're in like college labs or
things like that where there's a bunch of other tests and tests taking going on. Like I wonder about the infrastructure
sometimes I think it was easier if it was just a shutdown down componentized thing. But now if you need to get out to the
internet you're dependent on internet access the whole time. Like oh how
quick can I browse through this? And and what's that look like? The machines you take exams on at appears
and Exam Center are all like crappy thin clients. They're not like beefy
machines like you have at home. So they run the exam software slow enough
that I bet they don't run the internet any faster. Like when it comes to rendering in
a web browser or things like that. I might have to go try and sit
one just to see how it goes. Go figure one out Scott. We
can compete on an exam. Indie, Do you feel overwhelmed by trying to
manage your Office 365 environment? Are you facing unexpected issues that
disrupt your company's productivity? Intelligent is here to help much like you
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or to schedule a 30 minute call to get started with them today. Remember intelligent focuses on the
Microsoft cloud so you can focus on your business. What else did we have? Did you have We had a couple other
kind of interesting announcements. Oh I've got YouTube videos playing in
my tabs now as I click through 'em.  did you want to
talk about one of yourannouncements this week
around storage accounts? Yeah. We can talk about one of mine. So something that I've been
working on with some of my partners over in Azure
networking is improving the experience for our C D N customers. I don't know if you've paid attention
to the C D N space at Microsoft and kind of what's been going on there, but there's a couple different
resource providers for CDNs. Like there's Microsoft CDN and
then within Microsoft C D N there's classic C D N, there's
Akamai, there's Verizon. And at one point there was an offering
called Front Door Classic. Uh, well it was called Front Door
at the time Azure Front Door. And then that became Azure Front Door
Classic and now there's Azure Front Door Standard and Premium. And we never really kept up with
all that stuff on the storage side. Like many of our customers have ended
up in a space where you know, they're, they're potentially relegated if they
want to configure things through the Azure portal to leveraging like the classic C D N Akamai C dmm which is
gonna be deprecated and and
has been announced as gonna be retired in the next couple of years. So I want to like we set out on this
kind of journey to see if we can improve the process for customers
there and by improve it, not just hey let's make sure we're
modernizing and giving customers access to like the right tool for the right job
but also simplify the process. Like it, it was kind of an interesting thing for
me as product manager to sit down and look at an existing experience that like
I had nothing to do with originally in in storage and go like, oh yeah, this is kind of like not the
greatest experience for customers. It's kind of complicated. It takes in excess of 20 clicks to
create a C D N endpoint .Which is kind of crazy because really
all you're doing is using the portal as like an arm template expression generator
like we've talked about in the past. Like how do you simplify that,
how do you make it quicker? So we cut it down to just a handful
of clicks and you can deploy and manage your endpoints
for a storage account. So for Blob as origin or for
a static website as origin or both if you want to, you can basically go into the portal on
a storage account and there's a blade in there that's now called Front Door
and C D N and you just pump in a name for your front door profile and
you choose a couple options like do you want a web application firewall and and
some other security constructs like do you wanna enable edge
caching and things like that. And you just click the
button and it deploys and it just kind of goes, which is super
slick. Like it's all good now. Now we have a unified management
experience where you can come in. So if you're a customer who's managing uh, blob is origin under Azure front
Door standard or premium or you're using any of the classic C D
N constructs like Microsoft C D N, classic Akamai, Verizon, things like that, you have a one-stop management
experience from within the storage blades. And if you want to like
we don't do C D N as a a hobo service or a hosted on behalf
of thing like you have a full access to front door and the
associated C D M profile. So if you want to do other things
in front door like okay great, I created my C D N endpoint and I spun
things up but now I need to know go customize that. I wanna bind a custom
domain, I wanna do custom ss, SS l, all that kind of stuff. I want to go look deeper at the features
in the web application firewall and customize the the rule sets, the
core rule sets associated with that. You have full access to that because the
front door resource sets provisioned is something that lives in your
subscriptions, you manage, you maintain, like we give you kind of the best
experience for what you need as a storage customer in the storage side. But if you need more than
that you just hop over to the, you hop over to the other side and
go to your front door resource and you can manage everything
through there as well. So I think it's really like a best of
both worlds kinds of things And now that there's more native integration from
our end from the storage side with Front Door, I tend to look at that as a little bit
of like forward looking thing as well. Like what other kind of integrations can
we build in to make things better for storage customers. Like you know
I mentioned like custom domains, you can do custom domains in storage
today but you can't do custom SS s L on a storage account. But if you front
your storage account with front door, front door does both custom
domains and custom S S L. So like is there a better
native integrated experience
that we could have there to guide customers in like hey if you
need a custom domain without SS S L go this way. If you need a custom domain and SS SS
l go over here to this other service 'cause it's the best thing and by the
way it's natively integrated. Got. It. So this isn't necessarily adding any new
SKUs or any new pricing or any of this. This is just taking those existing
Azure front door standard and premium SKUs and creating some tighter
integration between that and your blob storage. And our old C D N experience
didn't even have front door in it. So if you were just coming over to
storage you wouldn't have known that front door even existed or was an option for
you unless you actually went out and did it from the front door side and came over. So now you kind of have this holistic
view where you can start in front door and come to storage or you can start in
storage and get to front door and have all that functionality between both stacks. Got it. I am gonna add this to my
list and actually play with
that 'cause I'm actually working on redoing my website right
now as a static site hosted in Azure blob storage. So I might have to go throw Azure
front door in front of it and then maybe go ask you for some
Azure credits. .Front door's. Interesting. It's, it's, I had kind of lost sight of it being
in storage Uhhuh ,it was good to get back up to speed on
it like the last time I looked at front door, you know they had maybe like 150
pops and they didn't have as much of the rich WAF functionality and some of
the other things like it's actually kind of come a long way. They've
got like 192 plus pops today. They've got way better controls
around caching and cash purge. Having a single front door endpoint
with like multiple blob storage origins is super easy. Now we also took the time to make
sure that it works with kind of all storage account types. So you know we have some like new
endpoint types with these Azure D N S zone accounts in in preview today. And even though that stuff's in
preview like hey we baked it into this experience and it's ready to go. So I'm very happy with the way it turned
out and as you called out in the chat like hey look at the
author of that blog post. I've been in Azure storage for like three
years and I'm kind of happy like this is the first feature that like I got
to not only support and like help engineering build out but I own it and
launch it and it's the area of storage that I own. So that's kind of fun too. Congratulations on that achievement. It's kind of fun seeing your name at
the top of all that but can you get Azure front door pricing cheaper? Like if I go do this I'm gonna have to
make sure I stay on the standard plan because there's no way I'm
paying for the premium one.  stick around and watch the space
and we'll see what I can do. You'll.See what you can do. Alright there's your next i I sent you
after your next project because I mean the standard one isn't bad right?
$35 a month for something like this. But yeah that premium one at 330 a month, that starts to get a little steep
for my lowly little website. Hopefully I don't need anything in there. I think most folks like if you're just
starting out you don't need premium to be brutally honest. Like the
things that it adds in, you know is there really
value add for there? Like do you need a web
application firewall on day one? Do you need additional DDoS
protection between like what Azure, beyond what like Azure Standard DDoS?
Like probably not, right? Right. Especially if you're talking about
like a blog or even like a simple like company website like like your
website intelligent.com like likely doesn't need a bunch of those features. Like those features are there for the
folks that need them and Standard does do a whole. Lot Yeah about production. Like
I wouldn't need private link, I wouldn't need threat intelligence,
security analytics, you know, especially if you're hosting
a static website, right? Like there's not a whole lot that
it's public already so youreally don't have a lot of threat
detection you need or security stuff. It's just a bunch of H T M L files. Maybe you care about somebody getting in
there and somehow changing your files. But I would agree like you look through
the premium features and hosting a static website blob storage, you can probably get away with most of
'em with just that standard skew of front door and even. Like web static websites
in storage are super basic things where I would
say like for most folks, like you know you should start probably
unless you know you really need it. Like you should start
with Front Door Standard. I go the other way with
things like static websites, like you probably think you
wanna start simple, but uh, from what I do with static websites
and what I see many customers doing, frankly storage isn't always the
right tool for them. I I get, I'm supposed to sell more storage
but I, I would almost,I would caution you and potentially guide
you towards other services like Azure static web apps where it has rich
native integrations with GitHub actions and all those kinds of
things out of the box, right? I think about like most static websites
are actually statically generated based on other content like things like
Hugo and Ghost and all that. Yeah. So you have to run through like a build
process if you wanna do that with a static web app just on storage. There's a ton of bootstrapping
that you need to go do on your own. And if you just started out with back to
that conversation about the right tool for the right job, if you just started
out with Azure static web apps, you would potentially be in a better
place 'cause it has all those integrations natively from day one and you don't
have to do all that heavy lifting. We. Should go back and talk about those
'cause those have changed quite a bit too. I know like Blob storage
used to be the way. Blob storage used to be the way, that's another area in
storage that I look after. But now it's those Azure
static web apps have gotten. I don't know that it's the way
for everybody these days anymore. I'm very mindful of like in Azure we
have multiple services that do the same kinds of things and just from what I
see customers doing and from what I know that you probably do like you're probably
like a Hugo or a ghost person kind of thing versus a I'm gonna open VS code
and just actually manually write some H D M L here. I am actually using, now I'm
completely blanking on the name of it. I'm not using either of those. I am using, oh my Edge just crashed on me.
, we'll just call it a day. Yes.It to do too much. Why. Am I blanking on the name of it right
now? But yes, I looked at a bunch of 'em. I'm not using Hugo or Ghost. It's a newer one that came on the scene
that I actually like better 'cause it's not it, it just made sense to me. That's the thing with the static
website generators, right? You just pick one that
makes the most sense. But. I think the key word
there is generator. Yes, there's static web apps and then
there's statically generated websites. I absolutely use a generator. I think that's the distinction. So once
you start to get generator in the name, like you might wanna be
looking at something else. Yeah. So you go Pelican uh, it's in
here. We'll come back with that one. I'll throw it in the chat, we'll
throw it in the show notes. But I actually do have a
meeting at four o'clock so I should probably call it
a day with that. All right. Well as always thank you and we'll
chat again next week. Alright. Thanks Scott. We'll talk
to you next week. Yep. Thanks Ben. If you enjoyed the podcast, go leave
us a five star rating in iTunes. It helps to get the word out so more
IT pros can learn about Office 365 and Azure. If you have any questions you want us
to address on the show or feedback about the show, feel free to reach out via
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##### Episode 350 – Take a look, it’s in a book, or in a Microsoft Learn exam

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In Episode 350, Ben and Scott talk about some of the ambiguity in features between several types of Teams channels, a new model that includes access to Microsoft Learn for those taking role-based Microsoft certification exams, and a simplified experience for creating and managing CDN endpoints using Azure Front Door for Azure Storage customers.

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## [Episode 325 – How do I migrate from SharePoint Online to Azure blob storage?](/content/episode325/index.html)

by [Scott](/content/author/scottmsclouditpro/ "Posts by Scott"/index.html) \| Mar 16, 2023 \| [Podcast](/content/category/podcast/index.html)

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Welcome to episode 325
of the Microsoft Cloud IT Pro Podcast recorded
live on March 10th, 2023. This is a show about Microsoft 365 and
Azure from the perspective of it pros and end users where we discuss a topic or
recent news and how it relates to you. Microsoft Loop is finally coming
in public preview later this month. So naturally, Ben and Scott share some
of their experiences with
Loop and in particular loop components to date as well
as a few oddities that
they've run across using Loop components. From there, they move into an interesting scenario
they recently encountered around moving a hundred plus terabytes of data out of
SharePoint and into Azure blob storage and some of the challenges that one
might encounter in such a scenario. I have a question, Scott. When can
I start playing with Loop ?I don't know. Off the top I can say
that Loop is a confounding product to me. The more you
make me interact with it, the more confused I get by it. So example, like real practical example, the other day we were recording the
stream for YouTube and we're putting that together. And normally when we do the YouTube
streams we go back and forth inside of just teams chat with, with
random ideas and kind of, you know, status if we see somebody's
dropped out or you know, their video froze or something like that. And there was this need to put in
just a bulleted list for things. And it just so happened that in
the tendency that you and I do, teams in like Loop is all lit up
and ready to go. So as a, you know, great smart ass, I went in and said, Ooh, rather than creating some rich text here, I'm gonna create a loop component
cuz it's gonna be great. So the scenario is you
and I are in a teams chat, we're in the same exact teams chat.
We both have permission to the chat, we're like in a live
meeting, right? We're, we're going through and
we're doing it. I wanna. Put this on top of it. We're in, we're
logged into the same tenant too. Yes. Like we're both using
IDs in the same tenant. This isn't external guest user or uh, I invited an external user to the meeting. This is you and I logged into teams into
the same tenant in a chat in a meeting. Yep. So I went two of us in a
chat in a scheduled meeting. This isn't even like a one-off
teams chat or anything like that. I don't know if that would make
a difference, but just to like, this is a fairly structured thing and, and kind of a common
workflow I would think. So we're in the chat and I
create a loop component which is just rich text and it's got a couple
bullet points in it and I write up the text that I'm gonna put in there and
I hit send the send button in Teams first problem. The loop component does not render for
you at all and you can't even see it rendering there. You get basically a link to click
on and go out and view it online at which point you get
an access denied message. So you have to request permissions
to the loop component that I just sent to you in that teams chat, which in and of itself I'm just
gonna say like that is a horrible experience. Like yeah, teams should know that you and I are
chatting with each other and that I explicitly created that. I didn't send you a preexisting
loop component so it
wasn't like I was sharing a document or a random link that you,
you shouldn't have had access to. It's like I created this loop
component as a part of this chat. So you had to go open up, you know, the web view of my
OneDrive request access. I had to go and know where to go in
my OneDrive to respond to that access request or wait for the email to come
through from SharePoint that says, oh you know Ben requested access
to your thing. I give you access. I have to tell you in real time, mind you, this is like minutes later as we've been
dancing around and trying to figure out what's going on here, I have to tell you that I gave you
access to that component. And even then, because teams is relatively static when
it comes to chat and things like that, it's not like auto refreshing in the
background for messages that were previously sent. Then you have to click out of the
chat in the meeting and come back in, which I'm gonna argue doesn't really
work like it works if you're somebody who always chats outside of your team window. Like you and I are in a meeting right
now and we're doing video back and forth. So I tend to chat out
of the same meeting, uh, the same window that the video's in and
the only way to refresh that would be to leave the meeting  and then
come back like what a horriblebroken, awkward experience. Like it really makes me question if
the people who want us to use loop components have ever tried
to use them themselves. This is a little odd to me. So I have seen this done and
I thought I had done this successfully in the past and I've
seen people do this successfully in the past where they've all been in
a meeting or in a chat and they've gone and added a loop component and
everybody's been able to access this. So I'm also a little curious is, is this, do I have a setting in my tenant that
I missed? Is this a timing thing? Is this like why is it doing this?
Because I have, in all fairness, I have seen this work, but to your point, it shouldn't be this complicated
is to why it doesn't work. Like. I'm gonna argue if there's a setting in
your tendency that you need to set to make that work, it shouldn't, again, that should not even be a
consideration if there's something out there that you need to go ahead
and crank on a knob like that. Sorry, like that's just a, a non-starter And I might be a little
salty about it cuz we've been doing like planning and a bunch of like product wor
work this week and I've been spending a lot of time with  customers and
thinking about customer asks and thingslike this. This is just, I, it's
one of those ones where I go, did anybody ever try this? I wonder, I just tested
this. So I put a link in, I put a screenshot in the discord of
what this looks like and it showed a loop list in draft and it gives
me like a message at the top. Some recipients won't be able to view
or edit this and this was in a chat with me and someone else in my tenant. I didn't
actually send this one to you Scott, it was with somebody else. And I waited a little bit and I finally
clicked send and then I got a little button that said refresh. And now that
I refreshed it and I look at access, it looks like they have
access. I'm speculating. I wonder if there's a timing thing
because it did just work for me, but it was not as quick as
you and I did it before, like it was seconds while you were
talking where I started it up and maybe waited 20, 30 sec 20 or 30 seconds
or so and it did work. Like is it just slow in going
in and granting access to it? Where had we taken longer?
Again, to your point, I would argue it should probably
be quicker and a little bit more straightforward of ex
explaining why it didn't work, but it did just work for
me. But it was slow. We. Waited what like minutes the other day
cuz we did a whole big dance back and forth of going out to OneDrive
and you requesting permissions. So I'm gonna put on my hey I
ideation hat thing, right? Yeah, like how, how should that work? So your argument that it might take a
little bit for permissions to propagate, you should tell me that in the client. Like you shouldn't even
display the component, put a spinner over for it or something
and say like working on it and you need to wait like asynchronously until
the other end gives an act and says, Hey, all the permissions have
propagated and we're ready to go. If there's some type of weird asynchronous
flow that's going on where like when you click a send button, it's creating the loop component and
then you're waiting on another async call to do the permissions
later. Uhhuh .Like there could be a
weird timing issue there. Like don't make that an asynchronous
call, make that a synchronous thing. Create loop component set
permissions display, right? Like and then display block. Yeah,
just block the display of it.  don't make me have
the cognitive load andthe overhead to think about
that. Especially in a world, uh, where you and I are in the same
exact tenancy, same a d tenant, same set of permissions, like
all the, like all those things. You're not logged into that
tenant right now, are you? Cuz I can't even send you
one in the call we're in now. Probably not. I. Wanna go back and try this again anyways. We can go play with it more. But
I think yes, it was one of my, that's only like the second or third
time I've interacted with Loop and it has been a showstopper
frustrating experience each and every time I've done it
that it makes me question sanity as a user, which isn't a good place
for any product to be. Yes. I would agree with that, but Scott, you can play with it more now
because we've had loop components. But I did see that the Microsoft Loop app, so now we have a standalone web app
for Loop is coming to public preview this month is the current plan. It's
gonna start rolling out over this month. Go check your message center because
there's a whole bunch of stuff in here. I actually saw it on Twitter before
I saw it in the message center and they haven't figured out here. Here's
a shocker for you Scott ,they haven't figured out the
compliance stuff for it yet. So while it's coming in late March, it is not enabled by
default coming late March. They are rolling it out, but it is going to be disabled in
tenants by default and you actually need to go over to your cloud
policy service. So the, what is it? config.office.com. Yes. config.office.com and go
tweak your policies and config.office.com to enable the
Loop app so that when it does come, so you can go enable it now,
like it's in the policy. I already went and enabled it so that
when it does get deployed to your tenant, you will be able to use it and play with
Loop even more because I know that's what you wanted to do. Scott .I really don't know that
I want to, it's .It's just another, it's another one of
those things. I think it's going to be a, it's gonna be a very SharePointy
experience and I often feel the rough edges on SharePointy experiences.
Like I always want them to do more. And I think we talked about this the
other the other day too, but uh, we, we did it a little bit more privately.
We can do it again here. Uh,  Purpose-built tools
are purpose-built for a reason.Like they're very good
at doing that one thing. So if I look at say, component
or a piece of SharePoint, like lists, lists is like, okay, but it carries just all this overhead
and baggage of being ultimately just a SharePoint list, right?
It's not really a Microsoft list, it's a SharePoint list and
Carries, that's a SharePoint list, all the constraints that come
with that. So rebranding aside, like it's got a lot of cruft and it's
got a lot of overhead and it's got some weirdness to it because it
was designed to live in SharePoint. I fundamentally believe
that, right? Like there, there's constraints in the underlying
platform that drive to, you know, how these things come out and,
and are manifested for end users. So if I think about like Microsoft
lists and then Uhhuh ,maybe you go use Airtable, sorry, air tables a hundred million times
better like . It, it is,but it's purpose built. Do I get the document integration and
Power Automate and all those things? Like absolutely not. Like I
don't get that whole ecosystem, but if I don't need that ecosystem, like a purpose-built tool might actually
work a little bit better for me. And the reason this is kind of coming
to mind for me is that lots of people compare Loop and especially kind
of the standalone loop, like, hey, let's go to loop.microsoft.com
as a notion replacement and notion is for all its flexibility, a very purpose built tool. Like it does have a line where it
stops trying to be the everything for everyone kind of tool and it
knows its limitations and it just, it wears those words right out there. Like you can find it in the documentation
and you just know you go like, oh, this isn't gonna work. Versus something in SharePoint
land and Microsoft 365 Land, quite often the answer is, well like that could work if you did
this and this and maybe it'll work if you did this and what if you integrated this
thing over here and you did this and you're like, I I I don't want to do that. I just kind of like want to
to work and I want to do work, so enable me to do some work. Please. Yeah, and I think I totally agree. Like I think Loop could
have been or could be, it'll be interesting to see when it
comes out and we continue to play with it more. But in your, to your point like was SharePoint
and OneDrive fundamentally the right place to store all of these files that are going to be your loop
components, your loop pages, all of that. Ultimately those are gonna live
in SharePoint. Just like you said, Microsoft lists are SharePoint
lists, OneDrive document libraries, they are SharePoint document libraries. And there are absolutely
fundamental things that, to be fair, technical deck carried all the
way through from the early days of SharePoint. For those of you
that have dealt with lists, maybe you haven't dealt with
SharePoint lists and specifically, I still run into this all the time, is the whole 5,000 items in a
query and in a list is like, I don't know if it was 2003, 2007, but fundamentally it's because all of
this stuff lived in a sequel database. When you would go to query more than
5,000 items from the sequel database and would put locks on the database, that would cause the entire platform
to run slow  carry it forward15 years. And we're still dealing with
it because of that technical debt. And when you do things like Loop and
SharePoint lists and you try to treat a SharePoint list like a database, you
inherently run into these things. To your point, other places are much
better to build our li large lists because that's what
they were designed for. And when you try to make a SharePoint
list a database or even this like are we trying to make SharePoint
the storage space for Loop when it should be like, oh, living in blob storage or living
in some other backend service that isn't going to introduce
some of the constraints. Now I also get the fact that SharePoint
makes sense because you already have all the identity stuff, the permissioning
stuff, the sharing stuff. There's a lot of stuff they don't have
to build by putting it in SharePoint, but they also do incur that technical
debt and those technical limitations that live in SharePoint really because
of how it was built 20 years ago. Yeah. .It's interesting. Do you feel overwhelmed by trying to
manage your Office 365 environment? Are you facing unexpected issues that
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or to schedule a 30 minute call to get started with them today. Remember intelligent focuses on the
Microsoft cloud so you can focus on your business. You also experienced a question going
back to using things for what they're built for and challenges
that can come with it. What about if you try to copy stuff
out of SharePoint with AZ copy? I had a question from a colleague come
in and I think it's an interesting scenario. Uh, so first let's
kind of start with the question. I have a colleague that's
working with a customer and that customer is looking to migrate
a couple terabytes of data from SharePoint online
to Azure blob storage. Like they clearly wanna pull
some of those files, documents, whatever they happen to be out of
SharePoint and push them over to Blob in and of itself. Like, okay, fine. There were some things that didn't
even cross my mind  in thisconversation when I was chatting
with a person. So the initial ask, like just to the number that they
asked for was higher than this. Well, like let's peg a number
to it, right? Like, so I wanna migrate a
hundred terabytes of data, which means I have a tendency with
approximately 10,000 users give or take to get like the requisite
licensing, right? It would be someplace in that
order of magnitude, right? You, you're more than five licensed
territory or, or you've bought a, a whole big chunk of
storage from Microsoft, but they wanna migrate a a hundred
terabytes of data from SharePoint online to Azure Blob and they're
already trying to do it. And the, and the way they're trying to do
it is using a storage explorer, which I have to imagine, like,
I didn't even ask the question, but I have to imagine what they're doing
is either using synced libraries that are already synced through OneDrive
for business or they're using the, like the file explorer
view and kind of the mm, the, the wonkiness that comes
along with like that, that weird web a not web d a thing
that they have going on these days. That thing that should have never
been in SharePoint to begin with. Never should have been around to start. I I guess a couple of
things here. So one is, uh, storage Explorer as a
tool uses AZ copy under the hood for its
underlying copy operations. So you can think about like
dragging and dropping a file from say, your desktop into a storage explorer
window that's mapped to a storage account in Azure as an operation where
Storage Explorer is acting as a nice wrapper and a nice proxy and
it's gonna build out and it's gonna say, Ooh, I had a file dropped in here, so I need to call AZ
copy CP with this source, this destination and push
all those things through. And if you actually look in the,
the logs for Storage Explorer, you can see that it's calling the
commands for AZ copy in the background for those kind of core copy operation things,
right? The the puts and the GIS and, and all that kind of stuff. So. Just quick question, is there any performance loss by using
storage copy versus just AZ copy in the command line? Or is it really gonna be about the
same where Storage Explorer doing that type of stuff as just a friendly
cover on top of AZ copy, kinda like the Azure portal is a
friendly cover on top of rest calls? Depends on the operations you're
doing. Like there's, okay, there are things that Storage Explorer
does that are not functionality that's provided by AZ copy really we're talking
about like the underlying data movement engine of storage Explorer. Is just AZ copy is. AZ copy and a standalone,
uh, thing for it. So there might be instances where
Storage Explorer is great for you, like you need a gooey,
you need to browse it, you wanna do something like calculate
folder statistics, anything like that. Like awesome, go ahead. You
wanna view apples on like ADLs, gen two storage account ton of file or
folder like great use storage explorer for that. Like that's native
functionality to it. And then, you know, you wanna copy data, use AZ copy if
you have a large data copy to do, you might not want to use Storage Explorer
as an extraction layer because it's just adding more overhead
at that point, right? It's, it's an orchestrator for you, but ultimately it's orchestrating
a single instance of AZ copy. So if you're trying to do, you
know, a large copy operation, and I'm gonna define large in like
the hundred million plus file range, like say you're trying to copy half a
billion objects, 500 million of those, you might wanna orchestrate that with
like multiple running versions of AZ copy or even AZ copy running for multiple
machines or things like that. So Storage Explorer may or may not cut
it for you in that scenario, you know, as, as as kind of an orchestration or
or or proxy thing that's sitting on top of, on top of easy copy.
Got it. So back to our scenario. We've got a a hundred terabytes
of data in SharePoint online, not very clear where it sits.
Does it sit in, you know, a, a set of libraries in a single site?
Is it multi-site, like whatever, I don't know that it
matters, uh, a whole ton, but just from off the cuff from like
the question I got, it's like, ooh, it sounds like they're maybe trying
to do something unnatural here. So I was just trying to think through
like what are their options And back to the, I don't always think about scale
thing. I think the way you might, I saw a number that ended in TB
and I was like, oh, it's terabytes. This is easy, right? Like
you can totally use AZ copy, you can use AZ copy to do multi
petabyte migrations. So like, we're good there we're golden.
So my first thought was like, let's just sync it back
to OneDrive for business. Like pull the data down locally in a
client and then go ahead and continue to use Storage Explorer or just point AZ
copy at that folder where OneDrive has synced locally and you know, don't do it on like OneDrive on like
your client on your laptop while you're sitting on the beach. Spin up a VM in Azure that's
in Microsoft's wan where
it's gonna be able to do a semi performance synchronization
through OneDrive for business. And then certainly like run easy copy
from that op uh, from that VM as well. So you're all on the same backbone and, and everything's gonna kind
of go a as quick as it can. And you quickly pointed out to
me that there's some  uh,some potential limitations just around
OneDrive for business, whereas I'm like, I don't know, it's just a couple
terabytes of data. Who cares? So. This was a really fascinating question. If there's a customer out there that's
trying to do this and they want somebody to help them call me, cause I
would love to do work through this, but this is not, again, from your perspective blob
storage insignificant from
a SharePoint perspective. So here's where my head instantly
goes is continuing with our a hundred terabyte example, a hundred
terabytes is one and a half. I just did the quick math
104 million megabytes SharePoint. Naturally, it's probably a lot of office
files would be my assumption. I don't know for sure you'd
have to go do some looking, but let's say your average
file size is one meg, maybe even two megs PowerPoints. Excel could be bigger Word
documents could be smaller. You're looking at like 52 million
files where my head instantly went when you said sync it with OneDrive. Is OneDrive in the TSH or in the service
description document limitations. And I've seen this, uh, play
for optimum performance. Microsoft recommends storing
no more than 300,000 files in a single OneDrive team or library
site that you're going to sync. And if you are going to use sync, the same performance issue can be seen. If you have more than 3000, 300,000 items across all libraries, you are syncing even if the
libraries themselves are smaller. So if you're talking 52.5
million files and you can never sync more than 300,000 items, assuming 300,000 items are
evenly dispersed across
all your document libraries and sites and they're not all in one, it's a lot of syncing and unsyncing to get that amount of files onto a local
computer where you could even begin to use something like AZ copy to copy them
up. I mean maybe you go stand up, what, 300,052 million divided by 300,000. You're doing it 175 times. No,
maybe you're a large enough company. Again, a hundred terabytes, you're looking at probably
10,000 ish licenses, 175 people to do this. If you can get
a bunch of people working together, maybe not the end of the world, but now you're trying to coordinate
who's thinking what, who's copying what, not missing anything. This is not
an insignificant amount of work. Fair enough. So one of my other thoughts and I and I
tend to go to this back from like my old migration days cuz I was used to
always going from say like an on-prem SMB file share to SharePoint. You really didn't come back
the other way too much, right? But you definitely had this
machination, you went up where you, you went a certain direction and I think
Microsoft has built out tooling over time like the SharePoint
migration tool, uh, thing, things like that that can help you
out. So my other thought was like, well hey let's go to our old friends at
an ISV or like a migration vendor like sharegate and just point sharegate at
that thing cuz it's got a script ability engine, it has PowerShell support,
all those kinds of things. Mm-hmm .So let's say it wouldn't matter a
hundred terabytes of data if it was one terabyte per SharePoint site. That's only a hundred sites
of data you have to pull down, script it all out in something
like a sharegate and let SHAREGATE just run again. Let it
do its thing. So again, let's spin up a VM in Azure that's in
the region probably with my storage account and just install
sharegate on it, right? Point it at it and let it crank,
let it download everything. Once it's all downloaded, then I'm just gonna push it up the
other way with AZ copy and let it go. How viable is that? That's probably where I would go first. Although I was just looking so
I couldn't remember. Cuz again, I've always gone the other way with you.
Go get a share gate, go get a AvePoint, go get Metal Logics, which
is now Quest I believe, which is actually now Dell, right?
Dell owns Quest owns Metal Logics.It just keeps going. Yeah. So. Sharegate itself, I'd have to go look
at Questa Metal Logics, sharegate, I head handy. Sharegate does not support
a local file system as a Target. It supports it as a source. So you can go to your point
from local drives up to SharePoint, but you can't go back down. If you're gonna go to a Target,
it's SharePoint on prem online. One of the other third
parties may do it Mover, which is now Microsoft
Migration Manager maybe used to support it. They were pretty flexible. Though. I know. Uh, SPMT only goes one
way. It's it's on-prem up kind of thing. Mover. Is too, cuz they've started pulling
functionality out of the old mover. Do IO when moving it
into Migration Manager, which migration manager is different
than the SharePoint migration tool. Yes.  for those who are listening
in audio, like Ben's a big,my head just. Mind. Exploded, mind blown emoji
right there. Yeah. I'm. Legitimately trying to
think how would I do this? Like there's Logic Apps and Power
Automate that let you Connect. That's. The next place I went to. I said, hey, if it's ongoing or even
point in time migration, I don't know that it
necessarily matters. Logic Apps, power Automate and Azure
Data Factory have connectors. Or at the very least I can just do an
HDP call and make everything work through the HDP connector and get
it to where it needs to be. You might have some scaling issues
in there given number of calls, number of API calls, things like that
that you have to consider along the way. But it should be doable. Should be maybe. So I tried
to do this in essence, I have a client that we're
doing, we're not doing this, I was going to SharePoint from
SharePoint, right or wrong, as this may sound. Their process and the way
they did their work was they had certain projects, these were
large projects, think like large, relatively speaking, not large compared to what you're used
to storing large projects of a folder in SharePoint that would contain four
or five, six gigabytes of data, uh, thousands of files. So much smaller than millions
of files in terabytes of data. And their workflow was, once this
project reached a certain point, it moved from one SharePoint site to
another SharePoint site and then it had another status and moved again. And then eventually the part project
got archived off and it moved again. So we did, I tried to do this with Flow originally
where it was doing somethingsimilar to that where they could
go flag a project, flag a folder, update metadata, whatever it may be to get flow to
actually do the move in the copy. It didn't work. The data was too big. Ultimately what we ended up
doing is I have a hybrid runbook in Power Automate that actually uses
sharegate on a server sitting in Azure. So they trigger a Flow logic app. The Flow Logic app runs, runs a hybrid worker in Azure Automation
runs the PowerShell on the local server to use sharegate to move the data
from one site to another site because flow and logic apps
couldn't natively handle it, nor it could even just running
PowerShell in Azure automation. I think it's really the
SharePoint endpoints, it's those APIs you start handling
hitting throttling limits. That same article that talks about, and I completely lost it on all my
browser windows when it talks about the limitations of moving, let's see
if I can go pull it up here. Uh, moving and copying files across
sites. So copy move operations. A single operation has three requirements. No more than a hundred
gigabytes of total file size. No more than 30,000 files in each
file must be less than 15 gigs. Now maybe maybe moving and copying
down locally or using Azure Data Factory or something
like that could work around it. But you're, I think you're still gonna start hitting
thresholds and constraints with some of that stuff. That's probably your best bet. The other thought that is kind
of in the back of my mind, but again it's still using rest calls
and API endpoint that can get throttled would be just to use PowerShell to
download the files at a SharePoint. Just write a huge PowerShell script or
write one that you can point at a site and just go aside at a time,
run the PowerShell script, download 'em all locally and then
use AZ copy to move 'em up. Yeah. I, so, so that was another thought
that I had was you could be slightly transactional in nature about this. So AZ copy has things
like command line, pr, uh, parameters where you can point
it at a say like a folder of files that are sitting locally for you. But ultimately what it has to do
is enumerate those and every upload operation is gonna be kind of a, a
separate call and a separate API call. So if you're processing a objects
to a certain degree in a linear fashion, you know, you're
processing them, you know, in a, in that way versus a highly concurrent
model where maybe you're gonna process like 10 million at once kind of thing. Like that might be hard for you to
pull off something like Casey copy. It would be a long running operation. But depending on where the
files are hosted in SharePoint, like let's say it is a hundred sites, go into something like Azure Automation
and create a runbook in Azure automation where you don't
even have to use AZ copy. You could actually use something like
just the Azure CLI or Azure PowerShell to do this as well. Like if you want to be
PowerShell driven, like you said, hey, let's go ahead and download through
PowerShell using the SharePoint APIs, whether you're doing that with PMP or
just native kind of SPO commandlets and then just call an upload operation on the
other side and script it out that way, right? Like call this site, get everything
in it, download one, upload one, download one, upload one,
and then concurrency. You'd have to figure out how
to kind of spread that out. Like how do you get peanut butter all
over the place so that you can get the scale and throughput that you want. Like
it is kind of an interesting problem. I, I kind of thought about it as easy
in my head again, I started with, it's got tb so it, so it's easy in
it, right? Like earlier today the, the very first customer conversation that
I was working with a customer on was a uh, six petabyte data lake .
So I saw 200 terabytes. I was like,you're my easiest problem today, right?
Like yeah, you got nothing going on. . Yeah. See and so you
mentioned Azure automation.We may have done a podcast
on this a long time ago. You would something this big, you would have to run it in VMs if
you wanted to script it with Azure automation, it would have to be hybrid worker or you'd
have to run it just natively a VM and Azure because Azure automation, you would start hitting the fair use
limits where if you start consuming too much memory, too much CPU or
your script runs for too long, they essentially boot you
out of the queue and restart your job length of time. I've had it happen to me as quick as
30 minutes I've gotten away running something as long as two
hours. This amount of files, you'd be way beyond two hours. And
because you're dealing with files, I would assume your CPU and memory
consumption in whatever's doing the processing and the backend, they boot
you out way sooner than two hours. So I don't think you could even do this
with Azure Automation successfully, uh, without doing a hybrid worker, without
running it natively on a server. So, gotcha. So at that point you just
orchestrated on a server anyway, it's just a power sell script,
right? Run it, do the Rone thing, write it and then set it, forget it and let it run and
do its thing in the background. I think that's what I would do. I think
my approach would be scripted out, run it on a server. If you wanna
run it in parallel to your point, if you have a hundred sites and you are
okay spinning up a hundred servers in Azure, just spin up a bunch of
servers, dedicate a server to it, it might help with some of the throttling. I don't know what they watch from the
SharePoint side in terms of throttling when you're hitting the api, if you're
coming from a hundred different servers, maybe you don't get throttled as quick
cause you're coming from a bunch of different IP addresses. Maybe they recognize that it's coming
from the same tenant and going to the same blob storage and they're
gonna start throttling you. But I think PowerShell on a server to
download it then AZ copy to upload it is probably your best bet. All right. Well I, I mean if anybody else has
any good ideas, uh, , let,let us know. This is almost where I want like the bulk
export tool from SharePoint. You know, like kind of like we have like Azure
import export where I can just send them a disc or have them send me a disc. I almost want you to just be able
to send me a disc of my stuff, just do a dump and, and send it out
the other side, put it in the mail. And if it gets to me in two weeks, do. They have that? I don't know. I don't, I don't think, I don't think for SharePoint
such a thing exists. There's bulk import in the form
of these tools, right? Like, like SPMT and mover.io and some
of the other things you mentioned, but I don't think there's
a bulk export tool. Like, not even on the compliance side, right? There's nothing that I can say
to go in and gimme all my files. I do believe I was, I was doing
some quick Googling on the side, like I did find, like there's CIS tools
makes a document downloader. So maybe there's somebody else
out there that makes, you know, something similar if that wasn't your jam. But it does look like there are a couple, at least a few kind of paid tools
out there that would let you do it. So yeah, I, I don't know. I thought it
was an interesting question though. Yeah. Absolutely. As, and I would be curious if anybody
else has any other insight into it. Because one, I've, to your point, I've
never gotten this question before about, I have all this data, but I
guess it kind of makes sense, like if you're looking to archive stuff, we had some episodes too where you talked
about SharePoint as a files server. It's an expensive place to store a
bunch of files if you're just storing them there and never touching them again. Like I can see where this
could become a request. As companies create lots of
data and they have older files, they don't delete 'em, they
wanna archive 'em somewhere. It is way cheaper to store
200, a hundred, 300 whatever, hundreds of terabytes and blob
storage than it is SharePoint. SharePoint you're paying, again,
I figured it out. I did the math. You get 10 gigabytes for every user. So every user license
gives you 10 gigabytes. One terabyte is a hundred user licenses. So you're either paying for a bunch of
licenses if you're going out and buying file storage, it is still 20 cents per month per gigabyte. 20 Cents per month per gigabyte.
Eh, it starts to add up. It starts to add up
compared to blob storage, especially if you can
go into cool or archive. That's fra Is it like
fractions of ascent? Yes. Yeah, .Yeah. SharePoint storage is 20 times
more than archive blob storage. There could be a valid use case for this. Maybe Microsoft should go build a feature
for archive to blob storage out of SharePoint when you get old files. That
would be kind of a cool tool. .I I mean I, I certainly like
the idea of it, right? Like, uh,  pay me money, .
That'd be, that'd be great. Yeah.Huh. Fascinating. All right. I'm curious,
like Scott said, if you have feedback, let us know. Twitter, YouTube
comments on the blog post, associating the podcast,
whatever you want to do. If you're part of the membership, just give us feedback and Discord and we
can share it on a future podcast. But. I was gonna say, if,
if you were a a member, you could come along and
participate as we record real time. You could see our yes, our made for Radio faces while we're
here streaming off into the ether. Yes. Give us live feedback and input on all
of our crazy ideas that we come up with. Indeed. All right. Oh, I
think that's it for me today. I thought we'd get through that one in
15 minutes and here we are onceagain, you know, 35, 40 minutes
into it and still debating. Still debating. We do have a
question we need to get to it. We do have a question in Discord from
one of our members that we have not gotten to that we should
put it on the list, Scott, in the next week or two to answer that
one cuz we can answer it in Discord. I've thought about going
in and typing it up, but I think it's another interesting
one that would be good discussion in a future episode. Next week. First thing, I'm gonna write it down on my Post-It
note of things that I need to make Ben do, uh, we'll discuss. We would do it.
Listener questions from Discord first. All right, sounds like a plan, Scott.
And with that, go enjoy your weekend. Perfect. Thanks Beth. If you enjoyed the podcast, go leave
us a five star rating in iTunes. It helps to get the word out so more
IT pros can learn about Office 365 and Azure. If you have any questions you want us
to address on the show or feedback about the show, feel free to reach out via
our website, Twitter, or Facebook. Thanks again for listening
and have a great day.

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##### Episode 325 - How do I migrate from SharePoint Online to Azure blob storage?

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In Episode 325, Ben and Scott talk through their experiences with Loop as it approaches its impending public preview and then dive into a question about how to approach a migration from SharePoint Online to Azure blob storage.

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## [Episode 308 – Microsoft Purview In-place Data Share for Azure Storage with Priya Shetty](/content/episode308/index.html)

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##### Episode 308 – Microsoft Purview In-place Data Share for Azure Storage with Priya Shetty

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In Episode 308, Priya Shetty – Principal Product Manager – Azure Storage – joins Scott to talk all things Microsoft Purview In-place Data Share for Azure Storage. They cover data share use cases and scenarios for Azure Storage, data share feature capabilities, how it fits into Microsoft Purview, and describe the experience and how to deploy your first data share.

New to Microsoft Purview? Check out our previous episodes:

- [Episode 294 – Microsoft Purview with Erica Toelle](/content/episode294/index.html)
- [Episode 295 – The artist formerly known as Azure Purview](/content/episode295/index.html)
- [Episode 296 – Microsoft Purview data loss prevention](/content/episode296/index.html)

**Like what you hear and want to support the show? Check out our [membership options](/content/membership/index.html).** [(more…)](/content/episode308/#more-107163/index.html)

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